Welcome to Asmoral and re-welcome to Chiz.
Have a cookie, ma dear lord and lady.

thanks for the cookie :D

Welcome Asmoral. Is that a character in the books? Sorry, I don't remember.

^_^

nathanielandbartimaeus wrote:Welcome Asmoral. Is that a character in the books? Sorry, I don't remember.

Asmoral was an afrit who refused to destroy another spirit he loved eventualy he split in two and destroyed himself, the magician and half of Baghdad in the process

A feat to be repeated twice, first in the 90s and then in the 2000s :)

and again in 2030....................but i wont give away to much of my master plan ;)

Hah.

Bart wouldn't have died for Nathaniel. At first they shared a sort of frenemy relationship, but sometime between TGE and PG it got tense and developed into hate. By the end of the trilogy, they were back to the frenemy thing again, but there's no way Bart would have died for Nathaniel. He would've done it for Kitty though.

Ptolemy wrote:Bart wouldn't have died for Nathaniel. At first they shared a sort of frenemy relationship, but sometime between TGE and PG it got tense and developed into hate. By the end of the trilogy, they were back to the frenemy thing again, but there's no way Bart would have died for Nathaniel. He would've done it for Kitty though.

I would like to think otherwise, but what you say seems more likely.

Topic Revival! Let the ranting get started!! ;)

Difficult question. Despite of my love for slash, I'd say he wouldn't. As much as I hate Kitty/Bartimaeus, I'd say he would have dided for her. He says so himself in PG.

But it's not that simple.

Let's see. I think he loved Ptolemy the most. Yes, loved, as it's stated in Amulet of Samarkand. Ptolemy respected him, trusted him, and if he ordered him something, he'd do it gently, and for noble purposes - like helping people. He gave Bartimaeus freedom. He told him his birth name without even hesitating. He followed him to the Other Side, he saved Barti's life. Plus, Kitty thinks he's attractive -and I trust her. If I were in Barti's situation, I'd love him too, to be honest :wub: :wub: .

Then there's Nathaniel. Nathaniel, not John Mandrake. In AoS, it can be seen how Bartimaeus compares Ptolemy to Nat several times. At the beginning, when Barti finds out Nath's birth name, he states that "Ptolemy once had the same height and the same dark hair as the kid" -but was more handsome :P . "I once had a master as stubborn as you. He didn't live long" he says as well. In my opinion, he thought Nat was somewhat alike Ptolemy. Of course, Ptolemy was better, but he thought Nathaniel could be like Ptolemy. That's why he warned him against turning into an average magician, as he did in the end of AoS ("You are talented, but not the way you think") and GE ("The Nathaniel you once were is fading away. There's almost nothing left of him").

Despite of his warnings, Nathaniel turns into the Great And Powerful Bastard, Magician John Mandrake, and starts treating Barti like crap. As a result, Bartimaeus starts hating him, obviously. However, Nathaniel is still there, that's why he dismisses Frog!Bartimaeus, saving his life. But Barti has lost faith in Nathaniel/John Mandrake, so he doesn't even reckon that.

Because of Kitty, Nathaniel and Bartimeause share a body, and that leads to mutual understanding, respect -not friendship, definitely not love sadly. Nathaniel is back. Which explains him dismissing Barti and saving his life in the end. Unfortunately, Bartimaeus still, doesn't reckon that -at least he says so-, and Nath says it's because "he ends up ruining everything".

And finally Kitty. A commoner. And yet, Bartimaeus likes her from the start. She's smart, a "breath of fresh air". Guess she reminds Barti of Ptolemy in that way. A few years later, Kitty summons him, tells Barti about the "demons and commoners" plan -which is similar in some ways to Ptolemy's "humans and spirits" idea. But there is no trust. From neither of them. Then, towards the end of PG, she goes to the Other Side. Barti remembers Ptolemy's sacrifice, and considers her an equal, a friend. He'd die for her ouch, it hurt to type that.

If you think of it, Nathaniel + Kitty = Ptolemy. Nathaniel saved his live (twice), Kitty went to the Other Side. Ptolemy did both.
But Barti likes Kitty better. :( :( .
Sadly, that's how it is.

Barti is forgiving, and I assumed Barti realised what Nathaniel really ment in the end since they shared a mind, and because how both sounded half joking/sarcastic the way bartimaeus relates it to us in retrospect. Quick thoughts like 'duck' didn't go over so well I guess but he must have realised it after a while. And really that was pretty clever and caring for Nathaniel to spot that he could just release Barti and it would deffinatly have touched Barti. And Bartimaeus really does seem to fall in love very quickly. And JS said he understated everything there. At least thats how I want to interpret it =) Though Nathaniel may still owe Bartimaeus

aiReY-chan wrote:Topic Revival! Let the ranting get started!! ;)

Difficult question. Despite of my love for slash, I'd say he wouldn't. As much as I hate Kitty/Bartimaeus, I'd say he would have dided for her. He says so himself in PG.

But it's not that simple.

Let's see. I think he loved Ptolemy the most. Yes, loved, as it's stated in Amulet of Samarkand. Ptolemy respected him, trusted him, and if he ordered him something, he'd do it gently, and for noble purposes - like helping people. He gave Bartimaeus freedom. He told him his birth name without even hesitating. He followed him to the Other Side, he saved Barti's life. Plus, Kitty thinks he's attractive -and I trust her. If I were in Barti's situation, I'd love him too, to be honest :wub: :wub: .

Then there's Nathaniel. Nathaniel, not John Mandrake. In AoS, it can be seen how Bartimaeus compares Ptolemy to Nat several times. At the beginning, when Barti finds out Nath's birth name, he states that "Ptolemy once had the same height and the same dark hair as the kid" -but was more handsome :P . "I once had a master as stubborn as you. He didn't live long" he says as well. In my opinion, he thought Nat was somewhat alike Ptolemy. Of course, Ptolemy was better, but he thought Nathaniel could be like Ptolemy. That's why he warned him against turning into an average magician, as he did in the end of AoS ("You are talented, but not the way you think") and GE ("The Nathaniel you once were is fading away. There's almost nothing left of him").

Despite of his warnings, Nathaniel turns into the Great And Powerful Bastard, Magician John Mandrake, and starts treating Barti like crap. As a result, Bartimaeus starts hating him, obviously. However, Nathaniel is still there, that's why he dismisses Frog!Bartimaeus, saving his life. But Barti has lost faith in Nathaniel/John Mandrake, so he doesn't even reckon that.

Because of Kitty, Nathaniel and Bartimeause share a body, and that leads to mutual understanding, respect -not friendship, definitely not love sadly. Nathaniel is back. Which explains him dismissing Barti and saving his life in the end. Unfortunately, Bartimaeus still, doesn't reckon that -at least he says so-, and Nath says it's because "he ends up ruining everything".

And finally Kitty. A commoner. And yet, Bartimaeus likes her from the start. She's smart, a "breath of fresh air". Guess she reminds Barti of Ptolemy in that way. A few years later, Kitty summons him, tells Barti about the "demons and commoners" plan -which is similar in some ways to Ptolemy's "humans and spirits" idea. But there is no trust. From neither of them. Then, towards the end of PG, she goes to the Other Side. Barti remembers Ptolemy's sacrifice, and considers her an equal, a friend. He'd die for her ouch, it hurt to type that.

If you think of it, Nathaniel + Kitty = Ptolemy. Nathaniel saved his live (twice), Kitty went to the Other Side. Ptolemy did both.
But Barti likes Kitty better. :( :( .
Sadly, that's how it is.

i don't think bartimaeus would have died for nat. i think at the end he just resigned himself to the fact that he was going to die with him.

he might've gotten there eventually but not right then after only a day of the old nathaniel coming through. at the end when he released him i think he might've considered it after that but, of course, the whole point was nat saved him from death when they were both going to die so, you know, bart can't save a dead guy can he? if somehow nat had survived then he would have been on par with kitty, almost.

yeah, i also think he loved ptolemy most. he, after all, did both and kitty had never shown barti that she'd die for him and he knew ptolemy alot longer and so would've been alot closer emotionally to him. how long had he known kitty for really, they'd only met for about 3 days, tops, throughout 5 years. at most.

i can't remember barti ever comparing nat to ptolemy, it says in my book he had 'pale skin and dark hair' when he first sumons him. the only time i remember barti comparing ptolemy to nat was when he chose his form to invoke some competion(?) in the kid and so he saw him as a bit more of a rival or something like that because ptolemy was around the same age as him at 14, nat being 12. was it in the library? (surely i'd remember something like that?)

haha, i don't think nathaniel hated him cause he turned into john mandrake, he expected it. i think he was more annoyed that he was mean't to be rid of the kid and he wasn't. i doubt he cared enough about him right then to be annoyed that he'd changed.

yes, i think it says she had some of the same views and characteristics of ptolemy. i dunno, kitty originally started as a small character and built up to be more of a influence on bart's character development than nat did even though nat knew him better. i was sort of irked at that, mainly because i'd never really got into kitty as a character, i suppose but more because i expected more from their frienemy thing than we got. i sort of wanted it to go on for longer, more time to pass really. the book only took place over a couple of weeks, the whole second half of the book was only a couple of hours long and that was where most of nat and barts character development happened in the book.

yes! Nat + Kitty does = Ptolemy! and yes unfortuantely i think barti does like kitty more in the books but that's just because we never really got to see what barti actually thought of nat after he let him go. i think there was as much respect there as with kitty.it was like nat seeing him as a friend or equal instead of a demon that could be depensed with. very ptolemy-like.

in other words. nat did one thing kitty did the other only we never got to see bart's opinion on nat because it was the end of the book (i think it was implied though.)

ps> not a bart/nat shipper. at all. seriously.

Indie wrote:i don't think bartimaeus would have died for nat. i think at the end he just resigned himself to the fact that he was going to die with him.

he might've gotten there eventually but not right then after only a day of the old nathaniel coming through

True. I think that way too. They just didn't have the time. Aww, why, Natty?
It's also true that Nat dismissing him took Bartimaeus by surprise. And his thoughts on the matter are never shown. He probably respects Nath more :) . And they probably got to know each other well when they shared Nat's body pure ho yay if you ask me.

Indie wrote:i can't remember barti ever comparing nat to ptolemy. [...] was it in the library?

Well, it's implied, IMO -but that's just me. I might be totally wrong.
And, no, it wasn't in the abandoned library. The library thing was totally different. Nighmare fuel for slash haters. :$ .

Indie wrote: i think he was more annoyed that he was mean't to be rid of the kid and he wasn't. i doubt he cared enough about him right then to be annoyed that he'd changed.

What I meant was that Bartimaeus wasn't annoyed about the change itself, but about the consequences -treating him badly, for example.

Indie wrote:they'd only met for about 3 days, tops, throughout 5 years.

That bugs me a lot. Like, yes, Kitty went to the Other Place and all that crap, to show her trust.
But, how long did it take for Ptolemy to build up that friendship (love)? Ptolemy did a lot for Barti, and it took about a year to gain his trust ("After a year I stopped lying to him", or something like that, that's what Barti says). And Kitty didn't even do half of those things, and Barti is willing to die for her, having known her for less than 72 hours. ¬¬" . How fair is that for Ptolemy? ^o)

Indie wrote:ps> not a bart/nat shipper. at all. seriously

Well, I am. :P .

I agree with everything aiReY-chan said. Sure, he respects Nathaniel for breaking against the norm for a time, saving his life, etc. but there is no feeling of mutual affection that defined Ptolemy's and Barti's relationship. By listening to what other magicians percieved as a merciless demon and following Bart into the Other Side, she displayed he trust and affection for Barti. In turn, he admired her courage and he definitely would be willing to make sacrifices for her too.

Short answer: No, he wouldn't have died for Nat.

Long answer: Bartimaeus’s relationship with Ptolemy was based on two things: respect and love. With Nathaniel, Bartimaeus certainly had the former (at least at the end), but not the latter. He respected Nathaniel for reforming and becoming a genuinely good person, as well as for his wanting Bartimaeus to survive. I think that his standing with Nathaniel at the end was something like what he had with Ptolemy before his trip to the Other Place: respect and trust, but not so much affection. Well, maybe a little affection. :P

After the Other Place, Bartimaeus would have died for Ptolemy, and he has the same feelings for Kitty after she crossed over. He looks at her with "mingled reverence and compassion" (awww) and outright says that he would die for her. With this as evidence, I would say that he loves her, and he definitely loved Ptolemy. He respected Nathaniel; maybe he even liked him, but he certainly didn't love him.

wrote:Nathaniel + Kitty = Ptolemy

Yes, this is a perfect way of putting it.

wrote:As much as I hate Kitty/Bartimaeus

What? What is this blasphemy?! MAN THE CANON, IT'S TIME FOR A SHIP WAR!
*beatdown*

Yeah.
Sad to say this. It seems that Bart wouldn't sacrifice himself for Nat. Bart just respects him, the time is so short for love to be built. And most of the time he threats Bart badly and doesn't do anything for Bart, just in the end. He lets Bart enters his body 'cause he's forced by Kitty. But I hope Bart loves Nat (just platonically. I dislike yaoi) because they share the same body, read each other's mind, know what both had been through, and understand each others. Nat's destinied to become bad person - magicians are bad throughout the trilogy - and he's raised the same way as other magicians so it's hard for him to be out from that badness. So I hope Bart more than just respects Nat.

-wave hand- hello, I'm new here. Sorry for my bad English. I'm Indonesian and still learning the language.:)

Yeah, what you say.
So cool to have an Indonesian here! And just keep posting and your English would improve (it is not very bad).

Saiph wrote:What? What is this blasphemy?! MAN THE CANON, IT'S TIME FOR A SHIP WAR!
*beatdown*

Shouldn't have done that
What I mean is, don't get me started. I could go on for hours.

nathanielandbartimaeus wrote:Yeah, what you say.
So cool to have an Indonesian here! And just keep posting and your English would improve (it is not very bad).

Am I the only Indonesian here?? (I need help to translate)

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nathanielandbartimaeus wrote:Yeah, what you say.
So cool to have an Indonesian here! And just keep posting and your English would improve (it is not very bad).

Am I the only Indonesian here?? (I need help to translate)