to different people, do you mean?
Yeah, I can dig that, makes sense.
Welcome, btw. :D

Welcome Chiz! Do drop in again.

Dansariki wrote:Bart would have died for Ptolemy, and would have had Ptolemy not dismissed him.
Bart would not have done so for Nat.
Simple.
How many more times must it be said.

I don't agre with you on that.Kitty and Ptolemy might have done more for him,shown more respect and all that counts,but THAT'S THE POINT.Nathaniel didn't do anything like Ptolemy.Unlike ditto,he'd slaved him,tortured him,trapped him -in the 3rd book.He had absolutely no reason to save Bartimaeus.Yet he did.THAT should give pause.Maybe right before Nat dismissed him,Bartimaeus wouldn't save him,but after Natty had actually done that,he would.He'd even grow to respect Nathaniel,and maybe love him.And let's face it,he may hate Mandrake,but he'd always rather liked Nathaniel.

Welcome Lifelock Pentacle!
Long post-I like it.

And in regards to its content, I think I'm going to have to agree with you there. Bartimaeus had always I think admired/liked Nathaniel just not the man John Mandrake he later became. And I have a strange feeling I've said this before at some point. But anyway, I think Bartimaeus would have sacrificed himself for Nathaniel if he had to; because (even though it was Nathaniel's fault) he saved Bart in book 3, AND (yes, even though it's irrelevant, I know) Nathaniel sacrificed HIMSELF for Bartimaeus in the end as we all know. Which goes to show how strong their bond really was (behind all the insults and the like).

Mightbe if Nathaniel had allowed Bart to speak, Bart would have had time to argue with Nat & might have refused to abandon him. Only, Nat sprung everything at the last moment & Bart had no choice but to obey as time was decidedly short.

I don't believe Bartimaeus could have resisted a dismissal. Otherwise he would have when Ptolemy was about to die. Bartimaeus could have argued all he wanted and he still would have been powerless. Besides, Bart could see the logic in leaving so I still think he would have left anyway; even if he DID have the ability to resist.

Yes, Bart wouldn't have been able to resist the dismissal, but he might have wanted to stay behind & might have have said so, had he the time. I keep emphasizing on might, coz we can't say for sure whether he would have liked to stay back or not.

I don't think he would have stayed. If you think about what he did to Barty, (almost killing him) I doubt he felt TOO much affection for nat. Besides saving him, Nat didn't do anything big for Barty like Kitty did. Also, as my brother pointed out, Barty is a logical enough djinni to know that there would be nothing gained from him dying also. But that's only my personal opinion.......

Theresa

Bartimaeus HAD to leave in order to release the full power of the staff. That's why I said he wouldn't have stayed even if he COULD.

dance4ever51 wrote:I don't think he would have stayed. If you think about what he did to Barty, (almost killing him) I doubt he felt TOO much affection for nat. Besides saving him, Nat didn't do anything big for Barty like Kitty did. Also, as my brother pointed out, Barty is a logical enough djinni to know that there would be nothing gained from him dying also. But that's only my personal opinion.......

Theresa

dance4ever51!
You explained the whole thing better than anyone ever did.

I think Bartimaeus did love Nathaniel as much as he did Kitty/Ptolemy. It's true, Nathaniel didn't travel to the OP like Kitty nor Ptolemy - but his relationship with Bartimaeus is unique in its own aspects. Ptolemy's relationship with Bartimaeus started off in a neutral setting - neither of them having any real hate towards each other. The relationship built up from there, bringing the two closer as time went on until his journey to the OP.

Nathaniel's relationship with Bartimaeus had a different progression - they both started off on a bad note. By the end of the first book, Bartimaeus doesn't really have any soft feelings towards him, but they've improved somewhat. In the Golem's Eye, as Nathaniel adapts to being John Mandrake, their relationship is back to square one, generally being all around negative. Nevertheless, Bartimaeus prompted Kitty to save him in the end. The majority of the third book progressed in the same manner until Nathaniel's epiphany near the end, where they finally grew close until his departure.

What I'm trying to get at here is that, while Nathaniel's relationship with him isn't as pure as Ptolemy's, Bartimaeus has watched him grow from Nathaniel to Mandrake, and back again to Nathaniel, albeit on a better note. Bartimaeus witnessed him go through much more character development than Ptolemy, in my opinion. I don't think his relationship is comparable to that of Ptolemy's, but that doesn't make it any less effective. There's a wider spectrum of emotions felt in Nathaniel's and Barti's relationship (hate, disgust, grudging respect) than that of Ptolemy's (cynical at the beginning, slowly developing to respect/love.)

It might not prove that Bartimaeus's relationship with Nat was as strong as his with Ptolemy, but I think it should at the very least be acknowledged. This is all just my opinion, though.

I'll give you the fact that Bart's watched him grow, but I think he spent more and better time with Ptolemy.
Gotta count for something.
Not to mention he and Ptolemy had quite the philosophical thing goin' on there.
Little on the Nat side, a bit more for Kitty.

I agree, he explained it very well.

Is the question here would Bartimaeus have died for Nathaniel or joined Nathaniel in death for no reason?
ps lol im a mite lol

You joined 2 months earlier, yet I'm an utukku already. I spam a lot, don't I.

I joined then forgot the name of this website then luckely stumbled upon it again later.

And Bartimaeus didn't realize for himself that he could leave. He wasn't thinking about himself.

chiz wrote:I joined then forgot the name of this website then luckely stumbled upon it again later.

I suppose that could happen.

wrote:And Bartimaeus didn't realize for himself that he could leave. He wasn't thinking about himself.

In both cases. That speaks volumes of Bart's selflessness.

He was nowhere near as close to Nathaniel as he was even to Kitty let alone Ptolemy, Im sure he had respect for Nat's ultimate choice but not enough to reverse Nat's treatment of demons in the past.

First post :D

nathanielandbartimaeus wrote:In both cases. That speaks volumes of Bart's selflessness.

yes I think thats very important