Technically, because she lives in Mumbai, she's much more exposed to anti-Pakistani propaganda...

Why are we assuming that there's propaganda? =P

Seriously, didn't you read my previous post properly? India has evidence that the terrorist got training from the Pakistan navy & ISI. Then how can you say the government wasn't involved? Do you know what I'm going through now? For the past 3 days, I havn't slept for more then a couple of hours each day & I whenever I slept it was due to pure exhaustion. I havn't had a proper meal these 3 days & have just been feeling sick. VERY SICK! Do you know how many of our commandos we have lost in this attack? Do you know my father was close to the Taj just a couple of hours before the attack? Did you hear the story of all the survivors & the wounded? Do you know my friends relatives were stuck in Oberoi? I havn't done anything but stay glued to the TV these days. Nothing. I really felt I needed a change-that's why I came here. I feel helpless-so damn helpless! And I do hope whoever caused all this rot in hell!

Don't worry Nat&Bart you have our full support and I am sure there is plenty here to keep you occupied :D

I'm not trying to belittle your situation, but there is no reliable evidence that the Pakistani government has any involvement - hell, they've sent representatives to help with the investigation.

BBC News wrote:India's foreign minister has blamed "elements with links to Pakistan" for the attacks.

Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari has pledged to act swiftly if given any evidence of involvement by Pakistani groups or individuals in the attacks.

As I said, the evidence at the moment mostly points towards the Pakistani Islamic militant group Lashkar-e-Toiba. Nothing to do with their government.

BBC news is so outdated about these attacks! I watched BBC internatinal too, during these days & their info is next to nothing. They were practically covering the previous days news! Wait for a day, you will get the news of the evidence(letter stating navy & ISI are involved+the captured terrorists confirmation of it) tomorrow.

Obviously, Pakistan government would offer help. They can't say no. When the Indian PM asked the ISI chief to come to India to see the evidence, they promised they would send him. Now they are sending a representative of the ISI to India.

As you might be knowing, in Pakistan the army, navy & the Intelligence services have a greater control then the government itself. If Musharaff was still in power, I would have little doubt the government would have been involved as the army was under his control. But I trust Zardari - I am sure he or his government would have not commissioned the attacks. They might or might not (I hope it's the latter) know about the training etc, but either way they have little say. They cannot go against their army & willingly or unwillingly are forced to support them. That's why I blame the government.

I assure you-Indians & Pakistanis want to be together. The 2 governments have been working towards it & succeeding, but these attacks just hinder the process. If Pakistan cannot control its citizens from attacking other countries & keep turning a blind eye towards all that's taking place, I'm afraid its going to be impossible.

Edit- Thanks for your support Nathaniel. It means a lot to me.

No problem, it is hardly something anyone wants on their doorstep so i at least am here to help in anyway i can.

There's nothing on any of the other major news sites or Wikipedia or Wikinews (which are generally extremely fast to pick up on any new developments) about it either. The captured terrorist's confession, for example, is on the Wikipedia page, and features absolutely no mention of the Pakistani government, merely being trained and equipped in Pakistan.

They were going to send the ISI chief, but there was local uproar so they had to send a representative instead.

If anything America is largely responsible for the level of terrorism in Pakistan, but that's a whole other discussion..

Nathaniel wrote:No problem, it is hardly something anyone wants on their doorstep so i at least am here to help in anyway i can.

I know Sentynel, couldn't you be a little sympathetic? =P

Sent's being pragmatic, it just happens to appear as if it's harsh.
Seeing as how she lives there, she does have a closer view, but not nessesarily a clearer one.
Pakistan has trained and sent terrorists to India before, but as for this, I'm on Sent's side at the moment.

Sentynel wrote:There's nothing on any of the other major news sites or Wikipedia or Wikinews (which are generally extremely fast to pick up on any new developments) about it either. The captured terrorist's confession, for example, is on the Wikipedia page, and features absolutely no mention of the Pakistani government, merely being trained and equipped in Pakistan.

They were going to send the ISI chief, but there was local uproar so they had to send a representative instead.

If anything America is largely responsible for the level of terrorism in Pakistan, but that's a whole other discussion..

We got the news in 'Headlines today' (a prominent news channel in India). LeT & a few other terrorist organiztions had been trained by the Pak navy to navigate the sea & reach Mumbai from Karachi. That's the news which had been flashed on our TV channels all through yesterday.

It's a known fact that the Pak government during Musharaff's time aided the terrorists. That's why the terrorists had flourished in their own backyard. Also, the government previously (I am stating previous situations, as they have been proved) has given protection to the terrorists & because of that they have never been captured. Do you think the whole government has become corrupt-free since Zardari took over less then a year ago? As I said before, I trust Zardari, but some others in the parliament have shady pasts who support the army & navy. I'm not saying they were involved in the attack, I'm only saying they are responsible for it has they give the army,navy & the rest a free lease. There's a huge difference between involvement & responsiblity. Obviously, this argument is applicable only if you only believe the evidence that the navy & ISI are responsible. As I said, the news channels have displayed it, its just depends on what you think.

Yeah, I know about the ISI chief thing. I'm just saying they shouldn't have promised to send him without properly thinking over it first. Anyway, Zardari has said he would send the ISI chief sometime later. I do believe he wants to rid Pakistan of terrorists & so do the common people out there. They too are sick & tired of what's going on in their country. I know that cause I have a couple of Pakistani friends (they have settled in India, but were Pakistani nationals).

I'm so happy now! Know why? Our home minister has resigned! Did you know, he wore 3 different suits for different press conferences on a same day? He's completely inept! It seems he did have information about the attacks beforehand, but didn't act on it has he didn't have any "specific information". People are screaming over their heads, asking him whether he was waiting for the terrorists to call up & inform the exact date, time & location of the attack. He resigned under pressure :D .

On a sadder note, the death toll now has increased to about 400. But the plan was to kill 5000, or so the the captured terrorist claimed. And bring down the Taj hotel like the WTC & Marriott.

Wow, this topic picked up some steam.
Actually, the death toll is currently between 170-190, with injuries about 325, each varying with the source cited.

nathanielandbartimaeus wrote:Obviously, this argument is applicable only if you only believe the evidence that the navy & ISI are responsible. As I said, the news channels have displayed it, its just depends on what you think.

I'd love to agree with you, but I've not seen such evidence.
Links would be greatly appreciated.

A VOTE man?! A VOTE?!

Of course.
I was even nice enough to make it multiple-answer.

Something in this article confuses me

Approximately how much of the Muslim population would approve of killing others because of the jihad?

A tiny fraction of a percentage point. You get nutcases everywhere. When they're religious too, you get religious nutcases. A very few Muslim nutcases blowing stuff up in the name of their god makes it very easy to mark the whole religion like that, but your average Muslim is no more an extremist nutcase than your average Christian or member of any other religion (or lack thereof).

Oh well, another big reply on the way. :D

Dansariki, if you read the 3rd para of the article hogwartshokage posted,you'll see most of your questions are answered there.
Indian police said Sunday that the only surviving gunman told them he belongs to the Pakistani militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba. The group is seen as a creation of Pakistani intelligence to help fight India in the disputed Kashmir region. Another group, Jaish-e-Mohammed, has also operated in Kashmir. Both are reported to be linked to al-Qaida.
LeT(Laskar-e-Taiba) gets enormous support from their Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI(Inter-Services Intelligence). That's a very well known fact in India, US & the rest of the world. Many previous instances have been proved of their association, so there is little doubt that the ISI is involved this time too, as LeT's role has been confirmed. Dawood Ibrahim (an Indian gangster) was responsible for the 1993 bomb blasts in Mumbai(& is suspected to be involved in these attacks too). Though a 100 peopple were convicted in the case, Dawood Ibrahim escaped to Pakistan. Since then, the ISI has provided protection to him, so the Indian police never managed to capture him. The Pakistani newspapers had themselves reported that Dawood Ibrahim was living there & even quoted what he was doing there. But whenever India has asked for him, the ISI has claimed ignorance. Also, the captured terrorist has said that he recieved training from ex-army official in Karachi. Doesn't this all prove Pakistan is strongly involved? The government has I stated previously cannot go against their army, navy & ISI as they are very powerful out there. As you'll know, Musharaff who was the head of the army, deported Nawaz Sharif to become Pakistan's president. Benazir Bhutto was assassinated because she was in support of introducing democracy in Pak & was strongly against Mussaraff. By whom was she executed? Every time a Pakistan official comes to India or vice versa to bridge gaps, we see a fresh wave of terror attacks in both countries. There are many militant groups in Pakistan, who just don't want the 2 countries to join hands. They have done their utmost to prevent Pakistan from being a democratic, peaceful nation, coz once that happens, they would lose all their clout. And time & again, its been proved that the army, ISI & the other militant organizations in Pakistan are responsible for it. Please don't ask me to provide links for all that, you could do a little research yourself if you're interested. I will provide the links for the rest as soon as possible, but my college started today after a 3-day break following the terror attacks, so you'll might have to wait for a while for all the links.

Death toll before Operation Cyclone (Taj) ended was 195. Though Taj was secured on Sat morning (IST) the combing operation went on the whole day due to its enormous size & only then did the NSG commandos realize many more were killed. I saw BBC world news too, they have been saying the death toll is 183 for the past 3 days. Max people died in Taj & many injured passed away too. So now the toll is around 400.

Muslims are as sane as the rest of us. You know, there are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan. And we have never had communal divides here (there have been v.small exceptions & the last was seen in the early 1990's). As I said before, I have Pakistani friends & they are extremely peace-loving people. Only sadly, a small group of them is bringing them universal condemnation by being badly misguided into believing Allah would justify their actions.

Anyway, I never said this before, though I ought to have, the only saving grace in this whole incident has been the sacrifices made by the police, ATS, army, marcos & the NSG commandos. They seriously risked their own lives to save those of many others. You know what they said to a hostage while rescuing him?-'Don't worry. We'll lead the way. That way, the first bullet will go through us'. The operation was carried out brilliantly & they are India's new heroes! Their funerals have been attended by lakhs of people & the politicians are getting lambasted for their deaths. Maharashtra CM & deputy CM too resigned under pressure(the latter had the audacity to call the attacks a small incident & the former has only submitted his resignation, but is sure to get out). Check, I'm happy. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashkar-e-Toiba

There's no proof of association with the Pakistani government or military. It's entirely possible that some members of the aforementioned services do support them, but that doesn't constitute support by the military or government as a whole.

I don't doubt that Pakistan has provided assistance of the past, and quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if it's proven to have helped, but I prefer empirical evidence from outside sources, i.e. as unbiased as possible.

I don't use the BBC for death toll, in fact the only time I go there at all is if I get linked.
So don't bother with that.

who do you use for your news? The Beeb is the best :P