My head hurts from having to read so much. u_u

"So, if we have free will, and God is omnipotent, he already knows what we're going to do, which rather destroys the point. Or else he doesn't fit the quota." (Too lazy to do the quote html)

If the question doesn't make sense then the answer won't either. There can't be free will and a designated path at the same time.

Kibblediggit wrote: If the question doesn't make sense then the answer won't either. There can't be free will and a designated path at the same time.

Not true, it a matter of choice; you can choose to kill yourself right now and be done with it. But you don't. You can simply pick up the kitchen knife and brutally murder your annoying parents. But you won't.

If you are presented two choices, to a vast degree it's predictable what you will pick.

That's not what I meant. Free will and paths. If you were created to be, say, a Truck Driver and that was your path, then would you really have free will in the end? I think God can predict things, and maybe try to stop stuff like mass homicide, but he doesn't choose your path for you. Predictable and free will are two different things.

Tell me if I'm not on the right track though, because I think I may have mistranslated your post.

*Sigh* The whole point of this thread is CreationVsEvolution, whether god exists or not. Prove to me god exists.


As for your post: A rat in a cage also has free will, but can it control it's own destiny? No. Same principle here.

"And despite all my rage I'm am still just a rat in a ca-age".

Sorry for getting off topic. But something like this always happens in any discussion that might possibly involve religion. I could prove to you that God exists, but I think in order to truly believe you need to have be convinced by God himself. You didn't ask that question because you thought I could prove it to you, you asked it to point out that I couldn't. : D

I do agree, that's a metaphor. But what exactly is destiny, and does it exist? You don't have to answer that if you don't want to get off topic even more. Or we could change the title of the thread and maybe have a non restricted discussion.

Kibblediggit wrote: "And despite all my rage I'm am still just a rat in a ca-age".

Oh yes.

wrote:Sorry for getting off topic. But something like this always happens in any discussion that might possibly involve religion. I could prove to you that God exists, but I think in order to truly believe you need to have be convinced by God himself. You didn't ask that question because you thought I could prove it to you, you asked it to point out that I couldn't. : D

Try me.

wrote:I do agree, that's a metaphor. But what exactly is destiny, and does it exist? You don't have to answer that if you don't want to get off topic even more. Or we could change the title of the thread and maybe have a non restricted discussion.

Communicating with you, is difficult.

Backwards, now! How's it difficult?

Trying, then. This is along my expertise, so I don't think you can google this.

All of the below can be dismissed as coincidence, if you'd like. But I thought it wouldn't be a good idea to throw up in God's face. It looks odd through text, and because you can't e-mail emotions or gut feelings, it might be hard to understand.

There's this one guy on DA, who I won't name. He was having a really really hard time. So I prayed for him. Months later, after I had sort of forgotten, he got a spifftacular scholorship, a new relationship, and all sorts of goody things. Cheered 'im up, and I don't even know him.

Another DA one. This person's sister's boyfriend's mother was scheduled to die on his birthday. Prayer, and she got another week.

One day, when I was riding home from school, I was thinking "Man. I really would like pizza". I got home, and my brother had made some for dinner. Little thing, but it mattered a lot.

Today, my cousins from across the country came to visit. We were scheduled to meet them at the beach, and while I didn't really mind, I would have preferred to have them here. Schedule tweak at the last minute, and they stayed at the house.

Love has a lot to do with it too, I guess. There's more though, but those are a few examples. You'd have to have personal things happen to you to truly believe in God, not have someone on the forum tell you.

Kibblediggit wrote: All of the below can be dismissed as coincidence, if you'd like. But I thought it wouldn't be a good idea to throw up in God's face. It looks odd through text, and because you can't e-mail emotions or gut feelings, it might be hard to understand.

There's this one guy on DA, who I won't name. He was having a really really hard time. So I prayed for him. Months later, after I had sort of forgotten, he got a spifftacular scholorship, a new relationship, and all sorts of goody things. Cheered 'im up, and I don't even know him.

Another DA one. This person's sister's boyfriend's mother was scheduled to die on his birthday. Prayer, and she got another week.

One day, when I was riding home from school, I was thinking "Man. I really would like pizza". I got home, and my brother had made some for dinner. Little thing, but it mattered a lot.

Today, my cousins from across the country came to visit. We were scheduled to meet them at the beach, and while I didn't really mind, I would have preferred to have them here. Schedule tweak at the last minute, and they stayed at the house.

Love has a lot to do with it too, I guess. There's more though, but those are a few examples. You'd have to have personal things happen to you to truly believe in God, not have someone on the forum tell you.

Does this count as empirical evidence? no.

...

This is pointless. Hume's Fork:

wrote:All the objects of human reason or enquiry may naturally be divided into two kinds, to wit, Relations of Ideas, and Matters of fact. Of the first kind are the sciences of Geometry, Algebra, and Arithmetic ... [which are] discoverable by the mere operation of thought ... Matters of fact, which are the second object of human reason, are not ascertained in the same manner; nor is our evidence of their truth, however great, of a like nature with the foregoing.

Told you. Can't prove it to anyone but myself. What's empirical mean?

So like, your brother making you pizza proves God exists?

By itself, no. But that, on top of other things, does to me. Not to you though, because you aren't me (which is a good thing).

You really are thirteen years old. Empirical means scientific.

Well, God does not exist. Take the impossibility of omnipotence for example: If a being is omnipotent, can it make a rock it can not lift? A game it can not win? A question it can not answer?

God could be explained as simply not omnipotent, but a much higher lifeform capable of creating and maintaining life. That would dodge a few questions pertaining to God's omnipotence.

And yes, it's a jolly thing that I am not you. :)

Are you going to judge me by my age?

The thing about science: It's based only on repetition. "Look. We'll drop a rock. It'll fall. We'll do it fifty times. Look, on drop number thirty two, it didn't fall. That's interesting. We'll try it again. Oh look it fell. It fell for the nect ten million drops. We must have been imagining it when it didn't fall."

Religion isn't like that. Religion doesn't always repeat itself, so science dismisses it. And how could someone who isn't omnipotent truly understand it? So how could, essentially, anyone who's alive and willing to say so tell you about it?

EDIT (at Krim): That could dodge questions, but that wouldn't help anything. It would also open up a lot more questions. Bandage one wound and cut open another. But it's a point.

wrote:And yes, it's a jolly thing that I am not you.

Why so, Krimmy?

If he is not omnipotent, then it voids all the 'he watches over you' nonsense.

HUME'S FORK, Mortal. A rock may fall, it may fall a million times, but next time it might miraclously rise up, defying the laws of gravity. The act is not related to the fact. You must adapt your own views.
Now religion isn't like that. It is written, it must be so. You have the answer before the question.

Ah, yes. God functions beyond logical parameters, he can not be understood by mortals. If that is true, the Bible is just another work fiction, wrong in every aspect.

Judge you by your age? I'm fourteen.

wrote:The thing about science: It's based only on repetition. "Look. We'll drop a rock. It'll fall. We'll do it fifty times. Look, on drop number thirty two, it didn't fall. That's interesting. We'll try it again. Oh look it fell. It fell for the nect ten million drops. We must have been imagining it when it didn't fall."

Except, that example doesn't work. Here, I'll make one up too. :)

'Creationists planted the dinosaurs so that Darwin would make a fool out of himself and then Spongebob and the Lord would share a cup of tea.'

(Sorry for the blasphemy there God/gods if you're around here. :D)

He could watch over you, just not be omnipotent. Not able to do everything, but still had the ability to warp the universe 'n stuff.

STOP NINJAING ME!!!

The bible was written by humans, edited by humans, translated by humans, altered by humans, and distributed by humans. Things have been left out, cut out, added. I don't believe that it is the final word.

What are you trying to say with your example?

He could, I suppose. But it would be pretty difficult, wouldn't it? There are a lot of people.

Kibblediggit wrote: The bible was written by humans, edited by humans, translated by humans, altered by humans, and distributed by humans. Things have been left out, cut out, added. I don't believe that it is the final word.

If God can not be understood by humans, it has no word.

I'm saying your example doesn't make sense, because science doesn't say 'oh well, rock didn't drop, try a million more times'. They'll look for a reason, and most of the time, there will be. If not, it'll be dismissed as a 'phenomenon'. I don't believe we know (or knew, at least) what exactly creates a will-o'-the-wisp, but there are scientific explanations that could explain them. Or you could go with the folklore of dead spirits or whatever...

Puck, that silly little goblin imp thing...

...so like, this convo is going no where.