Creation Vs Evolution.

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Post Higher Spirit
Against.
wrote:Empirical arguments (against)
Empirical arguments depend on empirical data in order to prove their conclusions.

"Within the framework of scientific rationalism one arrives at the belief in the nonexistence of God, not because of certain knowledge, but because of a sliding scale of methods. At one extreme, we can confidently rebut the personal Gods of creationists on firm empirical grounds: science is sufficient to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that there never was a worldwide flood and that the evolutionary sequence of the Cosmos does not follow either of the two versions of Genesis. The more we move toward a deistic and fuzzily defined God, however, the more scientific rationalism reaches into its toolbox and shifts from empirical science to logical philosophy informed by science. Ultimately, the most convincing arguments against a deistic God are Hume's dictum and Occam's razor. These are philosophical arguments, but they also constitute the bedrock of all of science, and cannot therefore be dismissed as non-scientific. The reason we put our trust in these two principles is because their application in the empirical sciences has led to such spectacular successes throughout the last three centuries." [6]
The argument from inconsistent revelations contests the existence of the Middle Eastern, Biblical deity called God as described in holy scriptures, such as the Jewish Tanakh, the Christian Bible, or the Muslim Qur'an, by identifying contradictions between different scriptures, contradictions within a single scripture, or contradictions between scripture and known facts.
The problem of evil (or theodicy) in general, and the logical and evidential arguments from evil in particular contest the existence of a god who is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent by arguing that such a god would not permit the existence of perceivable evil or suffering, which can easily be shown to exist. Already Epicure pointed out the contradiction, stating that if an omnipotent God existed, the evil in the world should be impossible. As there is evil in the world, the god must either not be omnipotent or he must not be omnibenevolent. If he is not omnipotent, he is not God; if he is not omnibenevolent, he is not God the Allmercyful, but an evil creature. Similar arguments have been performed by Schopenhauer.
The argument from poor design contests the idea that a god created life, on the basis that lifeforms exhibit poor or malevolent design, which can be easily explained using evolution and naturalism.
The argument from nonbelief contests the existence of an omnipotent god who wants humans to believe in him by arguing that such a god would do a better job of gathering believers. This argument is contested by the claim that God wants to test humans to see who has the most faith. However, this assertion is dismissed by the argument surrounding the problem of evil.
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Deductive arguments (against)
Deductive arguments attempt to prove their conclusions by deductive reasoning from true premises.

The omnipotence paradox is one of many arguments which argue that the definitions or descriptions of a god are logically contradictory, demonstrating his non-existence.
One simple argument that the existence of a god is self-contradictory goes as follows: If God is defined as omniscient and omnipotent, then God has absolute knowledge of all events that will occur in the future, including all of his future actions, due to his omniscience. However, his omnipotence implies he has the power to act in a different manner than he predicted, thus implying that God's predictions about the future are fallible. This implies that God is not really omniscient, at least when it comes to knowledge about future events. So a God defined as omniscient and omnipotent cannot exist. Theists may counter that God exists out of time and the premises for this argument are wrong, but this argument is flawless if you accept its premises.
The argument from free will contests the existence of an omniscient god who has free will by arguing that the two properties are contradictory.
The Transcendental Argument for the Non-existence of God contests the existence of an intelligent creator by demonstrating that such a being would make logic and morality contingent, which is incompatible with the presuppositionalist assertion that they are necessary, and contradicts the efficacy of science. A more general line of argument based on TANG, [7], seeks to generalize this argument to all necessary features of the universe and all god-concepts.
The counter-argument against the Cosmological argument ("chicken or the egg") states that if the Universe had to be created by God because it must have a creator, then God, in turn would have had to be created by some other God, and so on. This attacks the premise that the Universe is the second cause, (after God, who is claimed to be the first cause). A common response to this is that God exists outside of time and hence needs no cause. However, such arguments can also be applied to the universe itself - that since time began when the universe did, it is non-sensical to talk about a state "before" the universe which could have caused it, since cause requires time.
Theological noncognitivism, as used in literature, usually seeks to disprove the god-concept by showing that it is unverifiable and meaningless.
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Inductive arguments (against)
Inductive arguments argue their conclusions through inductive reasoning.

The atheist-existentialist argument for the non-existence of a perfect sentient being states that since existence precedes essence, it follows from the meaning of the term sentient that a sentient being cannot be complete or perfect. It is touched upon by Jean-Paul Sartre in Being and Nothingness. Sartre's phrasing is that God would be a pour-soi [a being-for-itself; a consciousness] who is also an en-soi [a being-in-itself; a thing]: which is a contradiction in terms. The argument is echoed thus in Salman Rushdie's novel Grimus: "That which is complete is also dead."
The "no reason" argument tries to show that an omnipotent or perfect being would not have any reason to act in any way, specifically creating the universe, because it would have no desires since the very concept of desire is subjectively human. As the universe exists, there is a contradiction, and therefore, an omnipotent god cannot exist. This argument is espoused by Scott Adams in the book God's Debris.
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Phaos Mouler
I beleive in creation, and I beleive in evolution to an extent. Im from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (more commonly known as mormons, or lds for short). And I dont really have time to read this whole topic today, or even this week, but I can answer questions if you guys have any.


tibit about mormons: We dont only beleive in the bible, but another book called the book of mormon, and while the bible has its flaws, the book of mormon is the most perfect book on earth. So if I quote stuff, it might be from the book of mormon.

-about forgivness
--I lord will forgive whom I forgive, but of you, it is required to forgive all men.
--turn the other cheek
--7 times 70

I do not know where any of those are from, only that it says them somewhere in the bible and or BoM

-about creation
--god is and always was and always will be (in other words, no one said, let there be god, he just was)
-- a day to god is 100,000 years to us(I dont remember the exact numbers)
---god took parts of other planets to form earth
--when god said let their be light, he made the sun

-evolution
--evolution happens, and maybe its even possible that god made apes evolve into man before he put a soul in one, and named it adam, we'll probally never know as long as we live

anything else?
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Post Higher Spirit
Hodge, the Earth is perfect because life evolved to be suited to it's conditions.

Right and Wrong have always been subjective to the person, there is no 'inherent' sense of right and wrong. The mayans would have been elated if the sun priests took their wives, raped them and sacraficed them.

Archaelogical evidence supports the Bible? The Gnostic Bibles and Dead sea scrolls included? I think not. And the Bible was doctored quite a bit by pagan Romans, don't forget.

Jesus was a Rabbi, a teacher and preacher like any other. Emperor Constatine made him a god. The walking on water and such is metaphour, not be taken literally.

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Luciene Higher Spirit
Phaos wrote: -- a day to god is 100,000 years to us(I dont remember the exact numbers)
Yah...I believe in that. The bible is a metaphor. It's not a historical book, it's religious, so obviously, you can't read it like everty thing actually happened.

And just because it sasy that the world was created in 7 days doesn't mean that it was 7 days in our terms. So evolution, probably happened.
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My god is a number, an equation, An abstract concept. What is yours?
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Luciene Higher Spirit
I'm Catholic.

Jesus is God, because everything in the bible, that he did was fortold so many years ago, in the Old Testament. Like the way, he died, it's in Isaiah.

And, how do you know that he didn't do all those miracles? Personally, I can believe, because of all the miracles that happen today. You live in India rite? Ever heard of St. Francis Xavier? His body's in Goa and even though he died 500 years ago, it still hasn't decomposed.

Edit: so you're an atheist? or agnostic?
Phaos Mouler
God
is a person of flesh and bones who knows everything, so he can do
anything.
yea, thats right, I beleive god has a body, and is not just a spirit. I
also beleive trinity is absolutly false. that the father the son and
the holy ghost are 3 seperate beings.
Yea, its possible that the bible has a lot of metaphors that a lot of
people take literaly. But by 7 days, maybe where ever god lives they
measure days differnetly. or maybe the same way, but his
planter/sun/box or waht ever, spins slower

jk about the box, btw
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*Shurg* You can argue about this all day, people have been argueing for eternity, at the end of a very long day, God isn't disproven, but God is diminished.

According to Catholics, Jesus is the son of God.
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Phaos wrote: God is a person of flesh and bones who knows everything, so he can do anything.
If he is of flesh and bone, he can't be omnipotent, can he? Omnisent maybe, but not Omnipotent
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Luciene Higher Spirit
I don't think God is isolated in heaven. It's not a spirit or a ghost, God's creation. A part of everything.

But he's not flesh and bones, 'cause that's what we are and obviously, he's better.
Phaos Mouler
Why not?
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Luciene Higher Spirit
Because he'd be limited by things like pain, and time and space.
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Luciene wrote: I don't think God is isolated in heaven. It's not a spirit or a ghost, God's creation. A part of everything.

But he's not flesh and bones, 'cause that's what we are and obviously, he's better.
Everything and Nothing, God is truth, I've said. Or alernately Truth is God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God

Try this. It clarifies for and against for god.
wrote:Are you Atheist?
Maybe, I don't know.
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Post Higher Spirit
Heh, here it comes, Intelligent Design now, Right? Full Circle.
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Phaos Mouler
My religion actually believes that’s one of the reasons we came to earth, to get a body. Once we die, we get resurrected like Jesus did, but our bodies are perfect, we need not eat drink or sleep. We feel no pain. And since satan and his followers didn’t agree with gods plan, they’ll never get a body, so theyre even more imperfect right now than you or me are.

and yes, I do beleive in inteligent deisgn. God didnt just point and say, let there be light, and all of hte sudden a sun appeared. He said let there be light, and the process of teh gas combining and stuff was started, and at the end os his day, a sun was there.
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Intelligent design holds only if evolution is false and God is true. And let's face it: God is far from absolutely proven.

And luciene? Truth in the Mathematical sense.
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Luciene Higher Spirit
Post wrote: God is truth, I've said. Or alernately Truth is God.
So, the truth will set you free?

And Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life" (not trying to convert you or nothing)

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Luciene Higher Spirit
That's why faith is the basis of all religions. You need to trust.

And you can believe in God and Evolution at the same time. We're not in the middle ages, it's flexible
Phaos Mouler
Do you even know what inteligetn deisng is? God isnt just some magical being that says "fire", and fire appears. God says fire and a process is started where fire starts to be made. and also, god doesnt say, evolve, and a dinasaur becomes a bird, god says it, and the molecules and atoms and cells start adapting to their enviormetn, and after thousands of years, the things is evolved.
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wrote:Intelligent design is presented as an alternative to natural explanations for evolution. This stands in opposition to mainstream biological science, which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world through observed physical processes such as mutation and natural selection.

Intelligent design's stated purpose is to investigate whether or not existing empirical evidence implies that life on Earth must have been designed by an intelligent agent or agents. William A. Dembski, one of intelligent design's leading proponents, has stated that the fundamental claim of intelligent design is that "there are natural systems that cannot be adequately explained in terms of undirected natural forces and that exhibit features which in any other circumstance we would attribute to intelligence."

Proponents of intelligent design look for evidence of what they term "signs of intelligence": physical properties of an object that point to a designer (see: teleological argument). For example, if an archeologist finds a statue made of stone in a field, he may, ID proponents argue, justifiably conclude that the statue was designed, and then reasonably seek to identify the statue's designer. He would not, however, be justified in making the same claim if he found an irregularly shaped boulder of the same size.

The most commonly cited "signs of intelligence" include irreducible complexity, information mechanisms, and specified complexity. Design proponents argue that living systems show one or more of these, from which they infer that some aspects of life have been designed.

Intelligent design proponents say that while evidence pointing to the nature of an "intelligent cause or agent" may not be directly observable, its effects on nature can be detected. Dembski, in Signs of Intelligence, states: "Proponents of intelligent design regard it as a scientific research program that investigates the effects of intelligent causes. Note that intelligent design studies the effects of intelligent causes and not intelligent causes per se." In his view, one cannot test for the identity of influences exterior to a closed system from within, so questions concerning the identity of a designer fall outside the realm of the concept
You do not know what intelligent design is.

*Yawn* I'm tired, but someone must make you see the light...
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