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The Creeping Shadow

Sentynel One with The Other Place

admin

16 Oct 16 - 00:22

Hey look, it's a graph:

[+] Spoiler: This was a real pain to lay out, and I'm still not very happy with it. Everything is connected.

I have a pile of notes to talk about when I'm a bit more awake, but one thing: There's some great foreshadowing going on. In particular, when pitching Lockwood on a merger, Fittes offers to make Lockwood and Co immortal. Somehow I doubt that wording is a coincidence.

Sentynel - Head Ninja, Admin, Keeper of the Ban Afrit, Official Forum Graphics Guy, and forum code debugger.
A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way

Kittycat Imp

16 Oct 16 - 16:52

My God. But thanks, that's really helpful! I will now proceed to waste more time theorizing.

[+] Spoiler: That is a very interesting point about immortality, though. I wonder, if they had joined her, would she have given them more information about whatever she was doing?
...Nah. I doubt it.

Sentynel One with The Other Place

admin

17 Oct 16 - 18:51

So here's something that's been bothering me:

[+] Spoiler: How does Marissa know about the goggles at the end? Who told her? There's not many plausible options. In approximately increasing order of plausibility...
1) Kipps himself, which seems unlikely unless he's playing a very elaborate double agent game...
2) A member of Lockwood & Co. Also seems unlikely, although I have some questions about how exactly George "just happened" to come into possession of a Type Three that had spoken with Marissa, while Holly is still a vague possibility.
3) Lockwood & Co are under surveillance of some sort.
4) Danny, their client, and identified (by Barnes) overhearer, who was definitely present at some discussions of the goggles, blabbed. (Possibly another member of that family, but these seem less likely.)

I think Danny is by far the most likely candidate here - Fittes would inevitably have done her own investigation into the events at the Rotwell Institute and surrounding area, and out of the above Danny is the only source (in the non-supernatural sense) she doesn't risk burning by revealing that she knows about the goggles, as he's the only one unlikely to provide further information.

princess-leyla Mite

17 Oct 16 - 20:03

Heh. My fan fiction has come TRUE!

[+] Spoiler: Seriously, though, maybe Marissa is a mastermind behind the Problem or something. Probably not. I dunno.

HAR HAR HAR! MINE IS AN EVIL LAUGH! -Firefly

Kittycat Imp

17 Oct 16 - 21:10

[+] Spoiler: I shall fight Stroud if it turns out to be option 1 or 2.

But yes, Inspector Barnes is becoming more and more suspicious. He even asks them about it in TSS, so I'm guessing he told Marissa about the missing goggles, and she suspected L&Co and made up the excuse of Sam McCarthy being her childhood friend (which would've made sense if she was Penelope, but doesn't now that we know it's Marissa) to start monitoring them.

Also, Barnes is certainly more powerful than expected if he's a sort of unofficial personal assistant to Marissa. He's present everywhere. I'd like to know more about him.

And in the Black Library scene, what was in the box? Another pair of goggles? Some sort of instruction to open a window to the Other Side? I have this feeling she knew L&Co were hiding: after all, if she's some sort of ghost she'd probably be able to sense them. Maybe Sir Rupert at the auction was sent by her? And right before they left the party, Inspector Barnes seemed in a real hurry to see the secret papers. The same ones, interestingly, that contained the instructions for creating the bone glass. I'm probably overanalyzing, but it's possible he was sent by Marissa, too.

And the whole Rotwell merging thing? That's most likely to get at the information that was burned down and make sure no one else finds it.

Sentynel One with The Other Place

admin

17 Oct 16 - 23:59

[+] Spoiler: That's a really interesting point about McCarthy. Hmm.

I'm not sure I buy that Barnes is working for Fittes, though. I think Fittes considers him beneath her, and I think Barnes is smarter than she gives him credit for. I think he's somewhat beleaguered, given the established questions over whether DEPRAC regulates the agencies or the agencies run DEPRAC, but I think he's on the right side. He pretty explicitly protects them in his last scene in Creeping Shadow; if he was working for Marissa he'd just want them to reveal any information possible.

The box in the Black Library is the wrong shape to be another pair of goggles. It has to be a different device. No idea what, though.

Kittycat Imp

18 Oct 16 - 15:09

[+] Spoiler: Guilt, perhaps? Maybe Barnes is sort of torn between protecting them and keeping to Marissa's wishes? Wonder if he knows about Penelope being Marissa...
Something else I was thinking...maybe Rotwell is trying to stop the Problem. Maybe they fell out because (going by the theory) Tom found that Marissa had started the Problem and intended for it to continue while keeping up her facade of trying to solve it. Maybe Steve thought that assassinating Marissa might remove the imbalance that's causing the Problem. And all the portal research, it's possible that that was in order to solve the Problem (don't know how though), and they had to go all illegal and get Sources from the relic-men because Marissa might have found out what they were trying to do. Steve Rotwell did seem to have a problem with L&Co being "Fittes' lackeys", could be part of the reason he told them to stay away from his research because he worried they might tell her.
Or he could be evil, too. That's also perfectly possible.
And some other stuff I found out when rereading THB...
- A building is mentioned during the carnival, that "used to be a church but was bombed in the war, and now held Marissa Fittes' remains" in a "simple granite tomb". What if L&Co might visit this building in TEG and find that there's nothing there?
- Also during the parade, Ms. Fittes says "I heard about your job for Miss Wintergarden. Well done." How would she have found out about just another job L&Co did? I know she is monitoring them, but this is still Penelope/Marissa Fittes, she must still be super busy. Why that case? I'm pretty sure it's because Miss Wintergarden is a member of the Orpheus Society. Not really relevant to the plot, but just something I noticed.

Okay, I'm quite aware this is turning into an essay. Anyway.

[+] Spoiler: I reaaally feel like there should either be a Book 6 or an extra long Book 5. There's still so many questions left to be answered. Not just about the origin of the Problem, but we've still got Lockwood's parents. And the skull. Stroud has been trickling information bit by bit in all the first four books; as much as I want to know all this, I wouldn't want it all dumped in Book 5 just cause it's the last book.
And then there's the aftermath of the Problem (because L&Co has to solve it, no question about it). How will society react to their way of life suddenly changing after 50 years? Suddenly, children aren't needed anymore! They have to go to school and act like children, can't go out at night, can't carry weapons. Adults can go out at night now. Crime rates will increase (former relic-men might become regular criminals [this doesn't include Flo, of course]). Everyone in a business related to the Problem will soon be unemployed. People will start having night shifts. All of that change. And what are L&Co going to do with their lives now? How is all of this going to fit into a normal sized L&Co book?

[+] Spoiler: Something else...In TWS, were Jack Carver's last words ever explained? "Please come with me." Is that relevant? I feel like it is.
This sounds super far-fetched, but maybe Marissa somehow "took" the age from her daughter, and that's why she's still alive and her daughter died early?

Sentynel One with The Other Place

admin

19 Oct 16 - 00:42

[+] Spoiler: I saw Stroud at one of the events on the Creeping Shadow tour, and he implied that the series wasn't going to end with a completely solved Problem and nothing more to do.
I would guess that there's something which is significantly worsening the Problem (and has probably driven its entire evolution over the last few decades), and they're going to sort whatever it is out; but just because that's gone doesn't mean everything instantly calms down and returns to normal. It'll be a while until the psychic activity returns to baseline, and there'll still be a bunch of people around with whatever forbidden knowledge caused all this in the first place.

Interesting idea that Rotwell might have been genuinely trying to stop the Problem. I would question it mostly on commercial grounds - as you say, the entire ghost-fighting industry will go out of business if the Problem gets solved. There are quite a few comments about their lines of commercially successful but questionably effective ghost-fighting tools, so they don't seem to have an ethical issue with cashing in. That suggests to me that they're as bad as the rest, just with different methods.

The contents of Marissa's tomb and the last audible sign of Jack Carver both interest me. On Jack, we've had a few instances of the recently deceased communicating with Lucy, but this feels different - it's at the point of death and it's not clear what his motivation for saying that would have been.

I'm pretty sure the untimely sickness and death of Fittes Jr are related to the untimely not-death of Marissa in some way. It seems like far too much of a coincidence.

shuror Mite

22 Oct 16 - 21:51

Interesting news on the next book brings up all sorts of questions

[+] Spoiler: I have been wondering how Fittes knew about the goggles and i think it could be a number of reasons. I will rank them in the order that i think is most likely.

1. Fairfax was a member of the orpheus society. We know they are developing tech that helps adults who dont have sensitivity. In the creeping shadow we are told that the orpheus society has some prototypes. Now you would think these prototypes are not cheap and the development is funded by the orpheus society. As a result of this somrone in the society will keep an inventory of all items. So when Fairfax died Fittes may have filled the blanks and worked out that Lockwood and Co had them.

She has kept tabs on them since that incident so when Kipps freaked out on her n left the agency because he felt powerless she may have worked out that he must be using them otherwise what use would he be to the group. She seems like a bright woman so it wouldnt be surprising.

2. The Rotwell scientist may have desribed the intruders to Fittes after she took over. I am sure she would have wanted to know exactly what happened from the scientist perspective. Its easy to remember someone wearing goghles when you give an account of what you saw.

3. Shes using ghost as informants to feed her information of whats going on.

Seems like everyone is connected in some way. As for Barnes i think he is a good guy trying to do the right thing i dont see him throwing a curve ball.

Ok the topic of curve ball the one i dont trust is George. He has a hidden secret. Like many people have pointed out if skull was a type 3 why was it being sent to be destroyed. I think George perhaps stole it from Fittes office or something, there is more to that story. I also think the Bickerstaff connection will come into play. I think Fittes has extensively interogated him question is just what did he tell her?

I am starting to think Rotwell was the lesser of the two evils. Maybe he had good intentions but just went about things the wrong way?

Talestry Mite

29 Oct 16 - 06:51

I just finished reading it!
Theory~

[+] Spoiler: Jonathan Stroud has always been interested in other dimensions. Even in Bartimaeus trilogy, whenever they crossed over to the other side, the protagonists seem to age. Maybe like Orpheus, perhaps instead of de-aging by strolling over to the other side, Marissa has actually died and rejoined the living? The dead among the living, that's rousing all the ghost activites.

evillaugh Djinni

29 Oct 16 - 09:05

[+] Spoiler: Hmm, but The Problem broke out before Fittes knew much about ghosts, she and Rottwells were the ghost-hunting pioneers after all

Friends come and friends go, but enemies accumulate
Si sapis, sis apis - If you're wise, be a bee
If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it is fertilized with bullcabbage

Kittycat Imp

26 Apr 17 - 00:27

Okay okay
I'm not sure if this post belongs in this thread but this is just a random observation...

[+] Spoiler: In The Hollow Boy, Holly mentions her team being blockaded by "seven spectral dogs". This is really intriguing as I've never noticed animal ghosts being mentioned until now (or maybe there's other instances, aka the moving thing in Flo's bag in TCS). Were these seven ghosts Changers in the form of dogs, or are they actually animal ghosts, and if it's the latter how does that work...?

Sentynel One with The Other Place

admin

26 Apr 17 - 08:01

That's a really interesting question actually.

[+] Spoiler: If I had to guess I'd say Changers, as we haven't seen any other suggestions of animal ghosts.

evillaugh Djinni

26 Apr 17 - 15:21

[+] Spoiler: I'm pretty sure Stroud said that animals didn't turn into ghosts, like, those rats in TWS, were just an extension of the main ghost

Friends come and friends go, but enemies accumulate
Si sapis, sis apis - If you're wise, be a bee
If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it is fertilized with bullcabbage

LogicPolice Mite

19 May 17 - 16:19

Can someone send me the book please ;-; The mail here is too slow and I'm so flooping 'ecking tempted to read this thread

MiniCupcake Mite

24 May 17 - 11:51

[+] Spoiler: I was reading some TSS and I saw that when they talked about cases, Lockwood (or someone, sorry I don't have the books rn) asked if a case they got is a ghost of a cat at some old lady's house. They might were joking about some case they had but maybe they meant there are ghosts of animals?

Also I don't think (or don't want to believe) Barnes is related to Fittes. When they talked about the Bone glass at TWS it seemed like DEFRAC are trying to understand something they aren't involved at..

But how did nobody saw Penelope and Merissa and thought that they look the same? Do they look different? How is it possible ;-;

Kittycat Imp

31 May 17 - 17:35

[+] Spoiler: Omg MiniCupcake, I've been wondering the exact same thing!! It's kept me up at night.
How did she pull off being a granddaughter and grandmother? Didn't anyone ask to see baby Penelope, after all being the granddaughter of the great Marissa Fittes there would have been a LOT of pictures and stories of her in the news. Wasn't there a funeral for Marissa, and how did doctors confirm that she had died? What happened to the mother? WHO was the mother anyway?
Ughhhh and there's still like 4 months to find out :'(

Kittycat Imp

12 Jun 17 - 19:13

[+] Spoiler: ok but you know how the blurb is like will marissa fittes succeed in shutting down L&Co forever?
what if that happens
what if she pulls a reichenbach fall and completely DESTROYS L&Co's reputation so that Lockwood is forced to shut down the agency he's worked so hard to build up.
that would be the biggest thing EVER to happen if that actually happened.
i would actually scream
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
I'm so stressed about thisssss

Kani Mouler

13 Jun 17 - 14:21

[+] Spoiler: OMG Kittycat, I've actually had those same thoughts after reading the Book 5 blurb, and it also scares me. :'( Marissa certainly strikes me as the type to play dirty like that and just say incriminating things about her enemies to bring them down.

"I find that when you have a real interest in life and a curious life, that sleep is not the most important thing."
-Martha Stewart

evillaugh Djinni

15 Jun 17 - 08:39

[+] Spoiler: Ok but. Either Fittes destroys Lockwood and co or she'll be next on L&co's 'murdered CEO' collection.

Friends come and friends go, but enemies accumulate
Si sapis, sis apis - If you're wise, be a bee
If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it is fertilized with bullcabbage

The Creeping Shadow

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