Ok, I've finished TCS yesterday and I absolutely loved it. I’m thankful that two of my theories didn’t come true, but an older one I had forgotten, did.
I read the whole book in one sitting and loved every moment of it: The horror, the suspension, the wit, the descriptions and the character developements. It does kinda end in a cliffhanger, but not as bad as the last one…kinda.
I have literally highlighted half the book and am trying not to scream into the void.

Now, for the spoilery part

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Well, obviously there was something off about the Fittes family timeline but I really didn't expect Marissa and Penelope to be the same person. There are so many questions and also what about Marissa's daughter who's supposed to be Penelope's mother?

This book was so great!

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I wonder if Penelope and her mother are the same person as well or if she sucked the energy out of her to stay young.

I LOVED it, and I'm still rereading it. I especially loved Lockwood, Holly, and the skull in this book. Favorite part was the Vauxhall black market.

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SO MUCH LOCKLYLE.
And yeah, so who was Penelope/Marissa's "mother", then? And if she "always had someone to do her dirty work", does that mean Sir Rupert has also been alive for a really long time? Does Marissa still have her Talent? Or is she from the Other Side herself, so her Talent is just cause she's a ghost herself? So many questions.....Wait, so how did the other kids start getting Talent? You know, I feel like this needs another two books for everything to be explained.
I'm also really glad Holly wasn't the manipulator.
And the skull's description!!! I want to know more.
Lockwood went into a bathhouse wearing a blond wig? I really want to know more about that.
Also, notice Lockwood never answered Lucy's question on pg 370?

SO GOOD

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Well, my obsessive graph-drawing and associated general theorising from the last book did pretty well. Rotwell behind the attack on the carnival, the role of the Orpheus Society, and the suspicious positioning of Sir Rupert, known nasty piece of work, as a friend of Fittes. But I definitely didn't call the peculiarities of the Fittes family.

This raises a heck of a lot of questions, naturally. Did Marissa genuinely die and get resurrected by Orpheus, or did she merely discover how to reverse ageing? How does her appearance of being prematurely aged in her 40s fit into this? Was there ever a Penelope Fittes? And, indeed, is she still naturally sensitive, or if not does she have Orpheus gear to give her Hearing as well as the goggles for Sight? If she's reliant on Orpheus tech, can that give her the ability to talk to Class 3s, and if so does it grant that ability to others?

Other Side related questions: What is it, really? Do spirits move on from that place to somewhere else, and if so is something affecting that related to more spirits breaking through to the world of the living? What's the relationship between spirits' appearance and agency there and their appearances in the living world? (The skull appears dramatically differently, but many of the other spirits they meet match descriptions given by witnesses from the living world.) What is it that makes children in particular sensitive? What is it about a Source that frays the boundaries between worlds?

Some more general notes: this was *not* a good book for Juicy shippers. Sigh. Guppy's ghost was maybe my favourite ghost yet; brilliantly done. Kipps makes a welcome return, continuing his character arc becoming less annoying. Barnes demonstrates rather more political savvy than he's given credit for by others, notably including Fittes. Lucy, and the others too, have definitely grown up somewhat. The skull continues its life-saving interventions, particularly when it directs Lucy and Lockwood to the way out from the Other Side.

And finally, and most importantly: the British cover depicts Lockwood and Lucy in the London Underground with rapiers drawn, but they don't have their rapiers on them in that scene! I am appalled.

Yeah, better take those covers with a pinch of salt

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Were those new passengers at Vauxhall ever really explained? We assume that they are political enemies of either the Winkman's (Winkmen?) or Rottwell's or Fittes'. But who would be able to put new ghosts there seeing as it's very dark and the ghosts must be active all the time? Orpheus society maybe?

About the Fittes' thing- It seems to be public knowledge that Penelope Fittes is the granddaughter of Marissa, but if they are the same person, are there no records of Penelope as a kid or with her 'grandmother' if she supposedly raised her? Was it really coming back or just very selective resurrection. She must look exactly the same according to the skull, but how come nobody noticed that, especially with both being such public figures. With the timing it seems like Marissa killed her daughter to come back life, which would raise some interesting questions about 'death's in life and life's in death'.

The Other Place (v 2.0) is exactly like the living world, but if all dead people really went there, it would be packed full. Do only some people or deaths have the potential to become ghosts? What happens to them after their source is destroyed, do they move on or go back to limbo? Why is the skull so special, being the only one with a functioning rationallity? If you have chosen not to move on directly after death, can you do so later? Not everybody who's in the OP appears as a ghost but can do so if a portal big enough is in the vicinity as can be seen in THB. How come? What do those spirits need to become ghosts?

@Kittycat: I believe Lockwood posed as a nun in a blond wig and a wimple. I am so drawing that.

Hi, ive been fairly quiet since my last post. So ive just finished reading the book last week and i finished listening to the audiobook today. Its interesting the things you often notice when you hear the words rather than read as the narrator places emphasis on particular words.

Its been a while so hopefully i wont mess up the spoiler bit.

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So firstly the plot, its been hinted that Penelope Fittes would end up being the big bad, The secrets with the Orpheus society, her connections with Sir Rupert etc but i had never imagined she was infact Marissa. Thats a fantastic curve ball. I am excited to see where they go next with this.
One of my favourite parts was just the character dynamics to see how they all played off each other, Lucy was fantastic, Lockwood was great (less of the Sherlock influence in him this time around, how he interacts with Lucy is a real treat. I think the character that really stole the show was the skull. He had some moments of brilliance, theres a bit of bartimaeus in him and thats not a bad thing.

Overall i am excited to see where this story ends up. We learnt more about Lockwoods parents and more about the Skull. After reading the blurb i kept thinking skull would betray them. Can someone clear up the following... The book blurb refers to an informant ghost? Who was this?

Were they referring to the skull as a helpful informant or is it something more sinister? Is the skull perhaps im secret informing Marissa of what the group is up too?

1. She had fantastic knowledge of what the team is doing. She even knew about Quills stolen goggles? How did she come by this information?
2. She has spoken to the skull and most likely she is the one that had his source placed in the glass jar. Why would she let it go so easily if type 3 ghost are very rare?
3. George says he found it and stopped it being destroyed? Why was it on the way to be destroyed? Was it really being sent to be destroyed or did someone want George to have it?
4. Why was skull not used in the circle? It was the only source not used? I still think there is a lot more to whats going on and the skull has many more hidden secrets. Perhaps Skull is a double agent?

Now i tend to remember random stuff. Lucy refers to someone else being a good listener but doesnt say who. This echoes what we are told about Lockwood finishing runner up in the rapier competition. Will we ever know who won and will it actually be significant?

Lockwoods parents are the key to solving the problem. I think George will find something in there research to solve the problem. On the topic of his parents. They were selected as candidates for the orpheus society. Why did they refuse? Were they killed by the orpheus society? Are they actually dead? What other goodies are they hiding?

The book itself refers to them as dead and also as missing. Whats is thier fate? I think this mystery will be important.

Lockwoods future. Is he mortally doomed? In this book everyone thinks he is too reckless and everyone says or implies that this will be his undoing. It seems very likely that he is not going to make it when you consider in The Hallow boy Lucy sees Lockwood in one of his little flourishes and she states something about thats how i wanted to remember him. This is before she sees the ghost of him.

I just hope it wont be another sad/ emotional ending like ptolmeys gate... I recall re-reading the last page over n over to try and find something sone hope for our protagonist. Though Lockwoods is not the protagonist here he is a major character and possibly the most important after Lucy.

Honourable mention for Barnes seems hes played an interesting card at the end and Fittes thinks he is a fool. Well hes pulled the wool over her eyes. I can see him becoming integral to what will happen next.

On the topic of helpers we have Quill. I preferred him butting heads with Locky and Co. He was still a welcome addition

Last but not least

Its mentioned Rotwell n Fittes aged very quickly could this perhaps be a sign of people crossing over into the other place? Afterall Lucy and Locky both took a long time to recover from the adventure. We dont actually know at the end if they are 100% recovered we just know the trip took its toll on them

So theres a few thoughts i wanted to share. What do you guys think?

MWAHAHAHAHA

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Lockwood and Lucy is now POSSIBLE
FEELINGS HAVE BEEN RECIPROCATED
YESS
YESSSS
Oh, and the implications that Fittes was evil were there from the beginning.

Ahhhhhh so many questions. I wish I could chat properly with Mr. Stroud! I keep forgetting my questions so I've started writing them down.

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Yesss, I've been wondering about Penelope/Marissa's "mother" too. Who is she? Is she alive?
Also, I was rereading TWS, and I noticed that Sir Rupert's father was apparently an old friend of Marissa's? This is more evidence for my theory that Sir Rupert is "old" as well. The skull seemed to recognize him too. Speaking of the skull, wonder if it would appear as the "rangy youth" or as its usual horrid face if it was let out?
And more mysteries about Lockwood's parents? Why does he not care about them as much as he does Jessica? I know he was really young when they died, but still....And they became ghosts as well, how did they die? Do they play a major role in the Problem?
Also, what was in Flo's bag? I'm really curious. And Mrs.Barrett's tomb?
Anyone notice the "broken gourd" reference to TSS? ;)
Shuror, I think the other really good listener was Marissa Fittes. But now that has a completely new meaning for me...
I really hope this won't be one of those series where the last book ends with Lucy beginning narrating TSS or something. Cause the books are written like she's talking to the reader, ex "You heard me right. I wanted the skull back." So yeah, I hope it won't be like that.

And that is so true, Shuror!! I read the L&Co books aloud to my little brother and despite how many hundreds of time I might have read them I always notice new details.
Welcome to Bartiforums, princess-leyla!! Here's a cookie: And YESSSS for Locklye
Wow, I had no idea we had Spock and Pokemon GO emojis.

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The Christmas Corpse? Can that be another short story like The Dagger in the Desk? It sounds SO interesting!!! I want to see what a Lockwood & Co Christmas is like.

princess-leyla! Yes, please do have a and some tea.

I wouldn't mind Lucy narrating the books, she is the main character after all...

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...as long as she's not narrating because she's the only one left.

Yeah, me too. I'm glad it's Lucy narrating. But I don't want it to end with her beginning narrating TSS or something, like in Artemis Fowl.

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And, nooooo, definitely NOT an ending with her the only one left. They've gone through enough already,

Hi again everyone. Looks like theres been a few more responses. Its really good to read everyones comments as people often find stuff you miss.

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The point about him caring more for Jessica's death. I think thats because he feels slightly responsible as he refused to help her with the stuff the night the accident happened.

I think his parents will have a lot to do with the outbreak. Maybe they tried to prevent it or maybe they discovered who started it and they were killed for that reason. What if they discovered the Fittes familiy secret?

Heres something else im the first book they find an old photo of a group of teenagers. Fairfax and the girl that was murdered were amongst those in the picture. They tell you that it was a club for socialites. Now what if that was the begining of the orpheus society and all of the people in the picture are actually members?

So many questions and so many theories. At least we wont have to wait too long until the next book.

Heres another point i picked up totally random and unrelated but just a minor annoyance. The book is set in london which is and has been for a very long time one of the most culturally diverse cities in the world so why is it that the only asian in the book is the owner of a corner shop? A bit of a social stereotype there. It just seems so random everytime its mention. Cant they just say cornershop? By actually saying Arifs cornershop it draws attention to the stereotype.

I dont think anyone else has mentioned we may have a budding romance between George and Flo. Seems like he has been visiting her alone.

Im about to start reading it again had a few days away from reading ill see what else i find.

I dont think Lockwoods going to die. Its just too obvious, it seems like its being set up as a curve ball.

Or maybe we find out that its not luck its his sister protecting him from the otherside, this would be completely random and counter productive to the plot... But than this is a Stroud book and not the ending of Harry potter so we wont have a randomly hashed together ending that lets the reader down. LOL

So yeah i have had time to think. Locky wont die.

Yep! I feel like I'm analyzing this (and enjoying) so much just because it's a currently incomplete series. If I had discovered this much later I wouldn't have cared so much about reading it over and over again. Well, I'm glad I get to analyze books I actually love for once.

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Ooooh, yes, that's possible. Still, though, I'm confused as to why he would be so secretive about his parents' deaths. I'm sure a lot of other children have lost their parents to supernatural causes over fifty years, why would his be any different unless there was something different?
That is a really good point about the group photo. I never thought of it that way!
And the whole thing about Orpheus's story. Can't it be taken the other way, like Orpheus trying to bring back the dead? If they really are "inspired" by Orpheus, they're most likely trying to do the same.
Yesss, I noticed that, too. Cubbones, I'm calling it. The author clearly ships them, I've seen that in some of his tweets and questions he's answered. There was a tiny bit of Flo/Holly as well in THB, I don't know if anyone noticed that. Maybe I misinterpreted, but I'd like to see how that will develop further.
Um, I'm one of those people that is also a fan of HP :ermm: But yes, I also say no to Lockwood dying :D

I really enjoy reading everyones ideas. Its fun. Shame there isnt more of us on here to keep the thread busy. That said time for some spoilers

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The orpheus story was to give the readers a hint at what may be going on. Orpheus found a way to the other side and came back. From the sounds of it Rotwell has also manged to send people to the otherside.

I think the orpheus society knew what Rotwell was doing with his experiments. I wonder if he was trying to find the source of Marrisa Fittes power. Perhaps she found something that cured her aging? We are told Fittes and Rotwell fell out. Maybe this is why they both fell out and went seperate ways. Fittes found a power and wanted to keep it to herself.

I think theres something in that theory after all Rotwell tried to have her assasinated.

As for cubbones i like Flobbins lol

As for the problem i think the link to the aging is linked with going to the otherside. I believe that is what aged them as clearly Lucy and Locky are not the same when they both return. It takes them a long time to recover considering in real time they were only gone 10 minutes.

So what i think is Fittes and Rotwell went to the otherside and when they came back they left the door open. Heres my theory now on the finale. The final book will see Lucy and the team visit the original place and find the first opening and source connected to it. So they will visit kent. I think they will find the clues they need to solve the problem n put a stop to it.

I think they will find some book, a very ancient text that Fittes and Rotwell studied to gain knowledge of ghosts and the other side. George will find this book. Perhaps its in the library at Fittes and George will break in and find it soon.

Does anyone know the exact number of books in this series? Im guessing there will be 2 more? However i wont be surprised if there is 7. I will actually be happy as i get to read and speculate more.

Last but not least I think it will be interesting to know what gives children the skill? Not all kids have the same skill. Lockwood has sight Lucy has hearing but why is this so? Is there a link? Is there a pattern? This might be interesting, not expecting too much as i think it will be random.

I am also a fam of other books including HP, just didnt lie how it ended. It felt rushed and stuff happened just to get a public reaction regardless of how counter productive it was towards the plot. This is the problem when capitalism takes over.

I hope we find out how skull died. I was thinking of naming skull and for some reason i think cedric suits him well. Or perhaps oliver ss cedric is a little old fashioned. So im calling him ollie.

So ollie may just be very important what if he was the son of Rottwell and Fittes and died... This could be why they went separate ways both blamed the other for the death? Would explain why Fittes put his source in a Jar n sealed it. Only issue with this is im sure he would recognise mommy. Interesting idea but not likely.

Im going to go look for some evidence to support my theory on what makes a type 3 vs a type 2 etc i think i have a basic theory but i want some evidence.

Sorry for the superlong reply lol have fun reading my nonsense i enjoyed writting it for sure.

I don't know...I feel like the questions that need to be answered would take two books, but the action itself just needs one book. And I have a huge list of questions in a notebook ready to be fired at Mr. Stroud.

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I agree, the skull can't be Rotwell. My theory is that he has a perfectly boringly normal name that he hates, and that's why he's not telling Lucy because he likes the whole mystique of being "the skull".
Also, the whole thing that Marissa Fittes wrote about Type Threes being evil beings that "twisted your words and played with your emotions"? Maybe it was just there to discourage people from talking to them and possibly learning important stuff?
And I keep coming back to this, but who is the mom? Nothing I can think is making sense for that.
And is it possible that going to the Other Side might have aged Lucy and Lockwood a bit? That fits with them being exhausted but they would have looked it as well, which isn't described. Or their age might have reversed then, and that could be Marissa Fittes' trick. Maybe when she went it, ghosts began following her like the Shadow, except one actually came out with her. And maybe she keeps revisiting it to stay young, and more and more ghosts come out with her, and that's how the Problem started.
And yeah, I've been wondering about Talent too. Why do some kids get it and not others, and different types of Talent with different strengths? Maybe it's always been there, but never really did anything until the Problem began.
And an unimportant question: Where does Holly sleep when she stays over, if not Lucy's room? :D

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I'm guessing the skull was around L&Co's age when he died. But yeah, was it because he died super violently or because he wanted to come back? I'm also going for the latter (still want to know how he ended up in the sewers, though). And if he spoke to Marissa (like when she was "Marissa", not "Penelope"), then why wasn't he destroyed a long time ago? Marissa obviously knew he was a Type 3. Why was he being sent to the furnaces (or what we think are the furnaces) so much later, when George is fired? And it's really interesting how he's not mentioned by name at all in history (or maybe they just haven't done enough research).
Also, the Fetch. It is technically a Type Three, because it had a proper back-and-forth conversation with Lucy. It wasn't really mentioned much in TCS, but its words remain. Who was it in real life? And why did it come back to tell Lucy all that? Bobby Vernon wasn't told all that by "Ned Shaw". It only said all that future prediction stuff to Lucy because it recognized she was powerful. I don't want it to happen, but George's theory does make sense. Both Type Threes seem to have vital information about the origin of the Problem.

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So basically, guys, let's just keep this thread open while reading Book 5 and see how many theories were correct :) Ugghhhh, I can't believe it's only been a month since release!! It feels like Book 5 is coming out like next month or something, but there's still 11 months...(sigh)

Guys, according to twitter Book 5 is going to be called The Empty Grave!!! *squeals happily* I'm so excited!!!

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Theories on whose empty grave? I'm going for Marissa Fittes'.