Chiz wrote:

Sentynel wrote:I got the impression that the spirit's objection to Khaba as opposed to Solomon was that he knew Solomon was at least trying to use the Ring for good purposes. Similarly, Barti was using it with the express purpose of returning it to Solomon (and also offered to destroy the Ring, if possible). Khaba, on the other hand, as a straight-up evil bloke, would only have used it for personal gain.

Yes! Thats what I thought, go great spirit of the ring! I wonder If Jonathan used just a little of the angel demon mythology in this book. Alot of little things made me wonder, Uraziel's name one of them of course

@ indie
Fanart? Awsome. Ive got two thigs I reeeallly want to draw. Barti when he broke free of ezikiel and is about to eat him -sick, and the passage where barti tells us about the djinn and the stars. Im not good enough with graphic art yet and Ive havent painted anything since 2nd grade so idk if I can do the last one like I imagine it :'(

cool, looking forward to seeing it. mines just basic face forward body length drawings that i drew to get what all the characters look like in my head. i do it with most books, theres no scenes or anything top complicated in my lot :D. i do love scenes though.

sentynel: yeah, yours makes more sense i just hoped there was more to it :D

edit: I've been looking through the other fanart. I'm nervous now.... :unsure:

All this fanart sounds great, I can't wait to see it! :)

I was flicking through the book again looking for little references to the original trilogy. I'll just quote this one for now

AoS wrote:The Indefinite Confinement spell is a bad 'un, and one of the worst threats magicians can make. You can be trapped for centuries in horrid minute spaces and, to cap it all, some of them are just plain daft. Matchboxes, bottles, handbags...I even knew a djinni once who was imprisoned in a dirty old lamp.

...and then we discover that Barti actually was imprisoned inside a bottle, albeit for a few hours rather than centuries.
Do you guys have any favourites?

I'm at odds over a few things; I'll have to re-read it to form a proper opinion. A simple break-down:
Things I LOVED: the fact that we got to know a younger Bartimaeus. Young!Bart is both naive, and yet a rather cold guy; he hasn't had Ptolemy to put things in perspective for him yet. That opening was so funny, until suddenly it was CHILLING how he killed that magician. He always expressed distaste with magicians, and mentioned past instances of actually killing them...but we always saw him do it on orders or in self-defense. Ezekiel was an unpleasant old guy, but actually witnessing his death took things to a whole new level. Also, his disgust and freak-out over Ammet's devotion to Khaba was really interesting, practically psychotic. This is definitely pre-Ptolemy Bartimaeus... and I like it :D

The Faqural/Bart bromance was also really sweet. It's nice to see them get along for once.

And also, nearly forgot to even mention this, but his absolute FEAR when he realizes that he's been put on a suicidal mission. He was *hugging* himself, for crying out loud. It felt so genuine, and suddenly he seemed so young. I wanted to hug him myself.

The line about the stars also reminded me of Honorius when he first got out of the crypt and noticed the sky for the first time...very nice. I'll have to go through the book and start finding relative things to the trilogy...

Things I'm still trying to decide about: I really liked Khaba and the whole thing going on with Ammet, it was a very new take on magician/spirit relations. But I felt like once they were established it sort of fell off to the wayside. I can't remember how, or even if, Khaba reacted to the defeat of Ammet?

Things I'm pretty sure I didn't like: Asmira. Not that I thought she was badly written in any way, or badly developed. Just...I think it was her dialogue that got to me. It felt a bit choppy. Actually, there were a few instances where the dialogue felt choppy. The actual dialogue SCENES, you know, where Bartimaeus really has it out with people (there's always that key confrontation scene once-a-book, and it's always my favorite scene) were great for me. But especially the conversation between Faquarl and Bartimaeus when Bartimaeus is trying to explain why he doesn't want to eat her...just lacked, somehow. Obviously Bart's explanation was meant to be really weak as he doesn't quite get it himself, but it just didn't quite come off the way Stroud's dialogue usually does for me. Was all the dialogue bad? Definitely not, but it didn't feel as consistent as it has in his past book.

So that's my huge spiel. So happy about this book, it gives me so much more to chew on :D It's so bratty to even start thinking this yet, but what do you think the odds are he might, MIGHT write another? I'm trying not to get my hopes up...but still XD

I met Jonathan Stroud at a book signing today and practically begged him to write another one, lol - he did say "probably" so I guess there's hope!

jesaray wrote:I met Jonathan Stroud at a book signing today and practically begged him to write another one, lol - he did say "probably" so I guess there's hope!

Wow!! Thats Awsome!!

bloodythorns wrote:I'm at odds over a few things; I'll have to re-read it to form a proper opinion. A simple break-down:
Things I LOVED: the fact that we got to know a younger Bartimaeus. Young!Bart is both naive, and yet a rather cold guy; he hasn't had Ptolemy to put things in perspective for him yet. That opening was so funny, until suddenly it was CHILLING how he killed that magician. He always expressed distaste with magicians, and mentioned past instances of actually killing them...but we always saw him do it on orders or in self-defense. Ezekiel was an unpleasant old guy, but actually witnessing his death took things to a whole new level. Also, his disgust and freak-out over Ammet's devotion to Khaba was really interesting, practically psychotic. This is definitely pre-Ptolemy Bartimaeus... and I like it :D

The Faqural/Bart bromance was also really sweet. It's nice to see them get along for once.

And also, nearly forgot to even mention this, but his absolute FEAR when he realizes that he's been put on a suicidal mission. He was *hugging* himself, for crying out loud. It felt so genuine, and suddenly he seemed so young. I wanted to hug him myself.

The line about the stars also reminded me of Honorius when he first got out of the crypt and noticed the sky for the first time...very nice. I'll have to go through the book and start finding relative things to the trilogy...

Things I'm still trying to decide about: I really liked Khaba and the whole thing going on with Ammet, it was a very new take on magician/spirit relations. But I felt like once they were established it sort of fell off to the wayside. I can't remember how, or even if, Khaba reacted to the defeat of Ammet?

Things I'm pretty sure I didn't like: Asmira. Not that I thought she was badly written in any way, or badly developed. Just...I think it was her dialogue that got to me. It felt a bit choppy. Actually, there were a few instances where the dialogue felt choppy. The actual dialogue SCENES, you know, where Bartimaeus really has it out with people (there's always that key confrontation scene once-a-book, and it's always my favorite scene) were great for me. But especially the conversation between Faquarl and Bartimaeus when Bartimaeus is trying to explain why he doesn't want to eat her...just lacked, somehow. Obviously Bart's explanation was meant to be really weak as he doesn't quite get it himself, but it just didn't quite come off the way Stroud's dialogue usually does for me. Was all the dialogue bad? Definitely not, but it didn't feel as consistent as it has in his past book.

So that's my huge spiel. So happy about this book, it gives me so much more to chew on :D It's so bratty to even start thinking this yet, but what do you think the odds are he might, MIGHT write another? I'm trying not to get my hopes up...but still XDI kno

I know, that scene where he killed the magician was chilling. it was really creepy. it showed that he wasn't human. he joked about doing things like that in the trilogy and noone really took him seriously because he was always a jokey character that had a thing for bragging.
but then again thinking back to the trilogy he had a lot of them scenes as well. with nathaniel in the library in AoS and kitty when she summoned him in PG and they were both quite disturbing scenes considering bartimaeus's character, not exactly as harsh as killing someone but the aspect is still there. i love them scenes smply because they give an edge to barti's character and make the reader fear what they should, the way every other person in the book does.

yeah, he does seem colder in this book, more childish considering he doing things he said he wouldn't stoop to in the trilogy; like some of his forms.

I thought the way he reacted to ammet was interesting too, and yeah i agree with you he was overly angry and he really hated him for it. I was shocked, i thought he would be angry but silghtly more tolerant and uncareing. i was shocked, mostly because it was a side of the character we hadn't actually seen before; him freak out. yes, we've seen him angry at nathaniel, pop eyed and foaming at the mouth, but this wasn't provocatation this was proper digust at something something more experience world-weary barti probably wouldn't have took so much offense at (like farquals plans in AoS). definitely a younger pre-ptolemy Barti and he was a bit scary.

haha, i wouldn't 've called it a bromance more a strained conversation between people who hate each other usually but have to talk to each other nicely for once. either way though it was very funny.

OMG, i can't remember that bit! when did he hug himself and was in absolute fear? I didn't even read it that quick! remind me please, when was that.

OK, i can't remember that bit either, i need to read the book again.

I think the point was more barti's reaction to ammets feelings for knaba, looking at the way he treated his other djinn, i can't imagine khaba thinking all that much of his marid other than to treat him with respect and something like affection to keep him liking him. I'd really like to know what ammet saw in khaba that made him care so much.

The speech is something a lot of writers get wrong because they make characters speak the way they write. I'm rereading the best bits of the trilogy and listening to kitty talk when she summons barti and she says some quite comlicated words and sentences that a commoner with very little education wouldn't say. I didn't see that with RoS because it's historic and originally said in a diffrent language so it's all quite formal and I expected it to be like that so i thought he did it rather well. i didn't notice the farqual and bart convo much other than it was quite funny (but remember choppy sentances are more funny than jokes that go on too long).

Oh, i hope he makes another one and it's like this one, i wouldn't want im to make another trilogy because i would presurize him to make it better than the trilogy and that could kill it. so, more of bartis side missions through time would be a very good thing.

---

jesaray wrote:I met Jonathan Stroud at a book signing today and practically begged him to write another one, lol - he did say "probably" so I guess there's hope!

OMG, probably. *sqeeeee*

I just finished it, and I'm going to try to write something that doesn't look like the product of a hyperactive teenybopper smashing her face repeatedly into the keyboard.

Well, to start, I liked seeing old Faquarl again. The part where he looks up Bart's skirt made me laugh (and, I'll admit, made me a teeny bit jealous of Faq). There were a lot of bits that made me laugh, obviously. The line about the flatulent unicorn especially, and Bart's description of his relationship with Faquarl consisting of petty abuse, contrived innuendo, and attempted murder. :P

Bart seems to be a bit more energetic and less world-weary here, and also less mature if the litany of fart jokes are any indication. There were also some really intense moments that I liked, at the top of the list being Bart going on a rampage when he learns of Ammet's love for his master. Speaking of Ammet, he was my favorite new character, far surpassing Asmira. That was probably not the intention, but I always like the funky characters. Ammet's relationship with Khaba seriously weirded me out. I got this creepy, almost sexual vibe from that first scene where they're together in the dungeon.

Asmira was...okay. She was an interesting character, but not all that enthralling. I liked how she actually listened to Bart, even if she didn't show him that much respect until the end. And that's my two cents. Saiph out.

indie2 wrote:I know, that scene where he killed the magician was chilling. it was really creepy. it showed that he wasn't human. he joked about doing things like that in the trilogy and noone really took him seriously because he was always a jokey character that had a thing for bragging.
but then again thinking back to the trilogy he had a lot of them scenes as well. with nathaniel in the library in AoS and kitty when she summoned him in PG and they were both quite disturbing scenes considering bartimaeus's character, not exactly as harsh as killing someone but the aspect is still there. i love them scenes smply because they give an edge to barti's character and make the reader fear what they should, the way every other person in the book does.

Theres also the easy way he was about to go ahead with Faquarl and eat Asmira, instead of say how he suggested they could tie up the Hotel manager in PG

Okay, just finished! There were a few impressions/opinions floating around in my head that I couldn't quite solidify, but finally seeing bits of other people's posts helped me get them in order.

One of the things I was most interested to see was how Bartimaeus was different before Ptolemy, and I was trying to rate it in terms of optimism/cynicism - and then I just realized that he was simply less mature and more naïve, colder in some ways and more receptive in others, because he maybe hasn't had as much time to mull these things over. I was kind of surprised that he was capable of being so sympathetic with Asmira, in which he displays a tad of the "mindless optimism" he brought up about himself. I mean, Kitty has a lot of the traits in Asmira that Bartimaeus admired (and the some of the same could be said for Nathaniel), but with Kitty he remained unconvinced. She had to scrape and bend over backwards to earn his trust, and Nathaniel had to die to get his respect (well sort of death was a result of it but technicalities technicalities). But a couple thousand years earlier, the first feisty, resourceful chick with a repenting attitude gets him sentimental enough to want to save her and stuff. So yeah, passage of time = world weariness/less easily impressed (ie, he doesn't flip out at Simpkins but with Ammet WOAHHH he just can't wrap his mind around the concept). Bugged me a little, but it made sense.

The book also gave off a more energetic vibe, much like Bart himself. Snarky one-liners and immature flatulence jokes abound.

And these things too:

wrote:Bart seems to be a bit more energetic and less world-weary here, and also less mature if the litany of fart jokes are any indication.

Ffff I'm glad I'm not the only one who compared the stenches and the unicorn thing to fart jokes. Also some of the footnotes... so random. Squirrel tossing with Mongols? Evasive Cartwheel TM (I want to draw this so much)?

wrote:I know, that scene where he killed the magician was chilling. it was really creepy. it showed that he wasn't human. he joked about doing things like that in the trilogy and noone really took him seriously because he was always a jokey character that had a thing for bragging.

I guess this is why he seems to be required to have one of his edgy-scary-alien-inhuman moments once per book. Not that I mind at all.

Mmm what did I take issue with... beginning was kind of slow, but maybe that was because I was kind of sleepy at the time and all the BT books start out slow anyway. There weren't really any new characters that I loved, and Faquarl was just kind of randomly cut in the middle. The Khaba/Ammet relationship was kind of dropped too, after the initial shock. I identified Khaba as the one who sent Ammet as the messenger waaay too early (after Khaba comes to pick Asmira up). The ending was too... neat I guess, and I was hoping for a bigger tie-in with the trilogy. There wasn't really any character that Bart had that hilarious chemistry with that he had with Nat, though I guess that works because just replacing that relationship would be kind of ehh-inducing. The cover ought to have had a finger in the phoenix's beak.

But really those are just silly nitpicky things (and the last one wasn't even serious) and I quite loved this book. I don't think it surpasses the trilogy, buts it's definitely on par and I laughed a lot, so that's all that matters.

Ozy wrote:She had to scrape and bend over backwards to earn his trust, and Nathaniel had to die to get his respect (well sort of death was a result of it but technicalities technicalities).

Well he saves Nathaniel willingly in book 2 doesn't he? With the golem? But yeah nice points.

Ozy wrote:So yeah, passage of time = world weariness/less easily impressed (ie, he doesn't flip out at Simpkins but with Ammet WOAHHH he just can't wrap his mind around the concept). Bugged me a little, but it made sense.

It's partly also that Simpkin is a mere foliot, weak and useless. Ammet is a marid, terrifyingly powerful and capable of swatting Barti as easily as Barti would an imp, and yet he's still absolutely devoted to a mere human.

indie2 wrote:I know, that scene where he killed the magician was chilling. it was really creepy. it showed that he wasn't human. he joked about doing things like that in the trilogy and noone really took him seriously because he was always a jokey character that had a thing for bragging.

Am I the only one that didn't have issues with him killing off the magician? He talks about doing it to past masters quite a lot in the Trilogy and I never really doubted that he'd do it given the slightest chance for the vast majority of masters.

I didn't doubt it either and I think it was creepy in an awsome way, he kills the fat lady magician in the bartimaeus journal on strouds website, but this one was creepier and the diolouge lol, "thats my name" :D

I didn't find him killing Ezekiel creepy at all. Mainly cause Ezekiel wasn't that great of a master anyways, just as mean as the rest of them.
I think it was sad that Ammet loved Khaba more than Khaba loved him. I kept thinking that if Khaba used the ring more, Ammet would be jealous of his new love for the ring and its super spirit.

Chiz wrote:

indie2 wrote:I know, that scene where he killed the magician was chilling. it was really creepy. it showed that he wasn't human. he joked about doing things like that in the trilogy and noone really took him seriously because he was always a jokey character that had a thing for bragging.
but then again thinking back to the trilogy he had a lot of them scenes as well. with nathaniel in the library in AoS and kitty when she summoned him in PG and they were both quite disturbing scenes considering bartimaeus's character, not exactly as harsh as killing someone but the aspect is still there. i love them scenes smply because they give an edge to barti's character and make the reader fear what they should, the way every other person in the book does.

Theres also the easy way he was about to go ahead with Faquarl and eat Asmira, instead of say how he suggested they could tie up the Hotel manager in PG

i dunno, that bit to me wasn't disturbing because it was doe in a jokey way. it was the same with most of the things barti said he'd done in the trilogy. :D

---

Sentynel wrote:

Ozy wrote:So yeah, passage of time = world weariness/less easily impressed (ie, he doesn't flip out at Simpkins but with Ammet WOAHHH he just can't wrap his mind around the concept). Bugged me a little, but it made sense.

It's partly also that Simpkin is a mere foliot, weak and useless. Ammet is a marid, terrifyingly powerful and capable of swatting Barti as easily as Barti would an imp, and yet he's still absolutely devoted to a mere human.

indie2 wrote:I know, that scene where he killed the magician was chilling. it was really creepy. it showed that he wasn't human. he joked about doing things like that in the trilogy and noone really took him seriously because he was always a jokey character that had a thing for bragging.

Am I the only one that didn't have issues with him killing off the magician? He talks about doing it to past masters quite a lot in the Trilogy and I never really doubted that he'd do it given the slightest chance for the vast majority of masters.

Its more that he always talked about it so laid-back and jokingly. we believed him but we never thought too much about it because we were never mean't to. then we see it in cold hard bloody reality. It's not the fact that he killed someone, more that we saw him killing someone. does that make sense?. I didn't have issues with it, i loved them bits.

Read the book, and I have to agree with everybody that it's great!

On the plus side, I got a friend of mine interested in the book series by getting him to read the passage where Barty's a pygmy hippo during the temple construction. Now that was funny.

Heh, I'm kinda in the process of a formal review for the book. But I haven't the time to finish it anytime soon.

Basic Points:

- Great Book
- Seemed to go slowly first (didn't like the Khaba intro with Bart inciting the usual ruckus - didn't have the same feel as similar situations), though the scene where Bart finally eats a master was fantastic - showed his true nature despite his amusing comments about eating tasty masters etc.

- Went back to it's usual fabulous self at the hippo scene - Bart was his slippery self, Solomon an interesting character.

- Battle scenes in the desert were thrilling, showed Bart when he was WAY more powerful. Didn't realize how world weary Bartimaeus was in the Original Trilogy.

- Asmira - I really didn't like her. First of all, she seemed bland. Even though being a royal guard would hide her true self for a bit, when she did relax a bit, she was still boring. Yeah, she can throw some knifes, but in general also useless in combat. At least when Nat was hilariously clumsy in combat, he was still powerful in many other ways. Asmira's skills didn't really convince her.
At the very least, there should be good chemistry between her and Bart - it was very weak in my opinion. Hell, in just one chapter, him and Solomon had better moments than the many chapters that Asmira and him had.
Along with the above statement, here was my biggest issue with Asmira - Too many similarities to Kitty.

Silver sharp things - check (though admittedly this is their best defense, Stroud needs to think of better ways to fend off djinn, without actually using other spirits, maybe not for every human, but perhaps for one special individual)
Delusional beliefs - check
Hot - check
Usual lecture and defiance and breakdown etc. - check

And many other similarities. This was one disappointing part of ROS and of Stroud's creativity in female characters.

Last bad comment: Like Gladdy said, the ending fit TOO well.

Now, onto only good comments about Stroud: I really like the whole thing with Khaba and his marid Ammet, and Bart's reaction. There's so much depth in this area, and it wasn't even explained very long - it's an open topic. Very good call by Stroud.

Final comment - can't remember more: Solomon. While I'll admit I was a bit disappointed that Solomon wasn't one of those power crazy hungry people, I do actually like the whole carrying a burden thing. It reminds me off the Giver.

All in all: While I don't agree with people when they say it's at the same level as the Original Trilogy, it's still a fantastic book in nearly all aspects (excepting the ending and Asmira). I'm quite shocked that Stroud is still so underappreciated.

But maybe one day he'll get his well deserved recognition.

^ :blink: same thoughts here. I just didn't want to criticise to much I guess.

What do you guys think is wrong with the ending?

You know, I was actually planning to do the same, except on the graphic novel, but I'm having a hard time finding it in the bookstores. Anyone got a clue as to why this is? I thought it was out by now, is it not?

Just finished it. I totally adored this book. Not quite as ~epic as the original trilogy, but I thought it fit in just wonderfully with the Bartimaeus universe. I thought the entire thing was absolutely hilarious. Like, the whole time I was reading it, I just kept thinking I need more of this. I'd really love more prequel novels because there's so much potential, and I'm pretty sure I would love anything that featured Bartimaeus.

The ending was actually my favorite part, especially the last conversation between Asmira and Bartimaeus. I loved her observation that Bartimaeus actually enjoyed some things about ... maybe not his slavery exactly, but certain aspects of his time on earth. There were a lot of great insights into Bart's character that made this more than just another adventure.

I quite liked Asmira, not as much as Nat and Kitty, simply because we don't have a lot of time to know her and she is quite... determined/one-dimensional in her mindset for most of it, but I thought her fear of helplessness was really easy to relate to.

Oh, and one of my absolute favorite moments was when the garden guardian manifested into the pillar of tendril-y smoke with yellow eyes that we all know and love from the first chapter of AoS. I was squealing with joy. AND ALSO. Major foreshadowing when Bartimaeus flipped over Ammet's devotion to Khaba. True, that relationship is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT from Bartimaeus' relationship with Ptolemy, but... that whole scene made me happy.

wrote:Asmira - I really didn't like her. First of all, she seemed bland. Even though being a royal guard would hide her true self for a bit, when she did relax a bit, she was still boring. Yeah, she can throw some knifes, but in general also useless in combat. At least when Nat was hilariously clumsy in combat, he was still powerful in many other ways. Asmira's skills didn't really convince her.
At the very least, there should be good chemistry between her and Bart - it was very weak in my opinion. Hell, in just one chapter, him and Solomon had better moments than the many chapters that Asmira and him had.
Along with the above statement, here was my biggest issue with Asmira - Too many similarities to Kitty.

Silver sharp things - check (though admittedly this is their best defense, Stroud needs to think of better ways to fend off djinn, without actually using other spirits, maybe not for every human, but perhaps for one special individual)
Delusional beliefs - check
Hot - check
Usual lecture and defiance and breakdown etc. - check

And many other similarities. This was one disappointing part of ROS and of Stroud's creativity in female characters.

Ughhh yes there was very little chemistry at all. Mostly it was just Bart lecturing her, which occasionally fell flat.

But mayhap the quoted appraisal is still a bit harsh? While I agree that she shares qualities with Kitty, they're different fundamentally in beliefs and morality and such. Nothing wrong with a good old 'feisty' female lead. Also, a less self-sufficient/'strong' female character would not have interactions with Bartimaeus that were as interesting to read about, or even catch his eye in the first place, so that's a limiting factor - for this trilogy at least (although HotV also had a self-sufficient female lead... eh, but that's another work altogether).
And on the delusional beliefs and breakdowns - I would say that all the main characters in these books have those? Nathaniel, Kitty, even Bart to a lesser degree ("BLUH BLUH HUMANS ARE EVIL I HATE YOU ALL OH WHAT IS UP WITH THIS EGYPTIAN KID NOOO YOU ARE CORRODING MY PROUDLY ESTABLISHED CYNICISM"). Something known as Character Development, which makes a character Interesting. Any dullness Asmira has comes from not having sufficient chemistry with Bart, being a one-track character by nature, and only appearing in one book which means that's all she gets for development and that's all the readers get for knowing her.

(man I don't remember Kitty being described as hot though. Pretty, perhaps. Asmira was definitely pitched in the 'hot' range though.)
(... I still say that Bartimaeus was a tiny bit too easily impressed by Asmira.)
(also I changed my mind. Don't think iRoS quite as good as the originals, but floating somewhere along that level in the less-hardcore range. I shall refer to it fondly as a supplementary work.)

... Who thinks there are going to be more prequels, based on footnotes or otherwise?