if this is so then where do the deamons get their powers form. There is some vauge refernece to the devil?

Thanks
Kavka

kavka wrote: if this is so then where do the deamons get their powers form. There is some vauge refernece to the devil?

There's no real reference to the devil. Actually, the only mention of religion (that I can recall) is where we get a really short history (in GE) of the decline of the Abbey- as magic rose to power, religion sort of fell out of fashion.

It's an interesting contrast to Susanna Clarke's Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, wherein religion and magic are closely tied- so much so that questions of theology are often tackled by magicians and questions of magical philosophy by clergymen. I suppose the difference is due in part to differences in target audience- also, different authors, different worldviews. But it is interesting that Stroud sort of glosses over the whole issue of the church.

On another note: I would think that the punishments fall under the purview of controlling the demons themselves; the magicians aren't able to perform any magic except through the control and manipulation of demons, and it might be that punishments such as the shirveling fire or the red-hot stiples are possible because they are a form of manipulating the demon's essence.

Also, we know that the magician's don't have any special deistinguishing, innate powers like the wizards and witches of the Harry Potter universe, since we know that "commoners" like Kitty can learn to summon and that new magicians are just normal children sold into bondage by their parents. They must come from such loving families, right? <_<

I think I just made my brain into a pretzel.

doesn't kavka say "what the devil" as bartimeaus blasts his way into the house on golden lane and reply "depends on how you look at it"

Also jakob hyrnek mentions that magicians sell their souls to get controll of the demons. Maybe this comes under the incantations of summoning.

kavka wrote: doesn't kavka say "what the devil" as bartimeaus blasts his way into the house on golden lane and reply "depends on how you look at it"

Also jakob hyrnek mentions that magicians sell their souls to get controll of the demons. Maybe this comes under the incantations of summoning.

Ah! Yes. I took "what the devil" to be vaguely anachronistic- not exactly an anachronism from within the story (like Nathaniel saying "thee" and "thou" when he first summons Bartimaeus) but rather... As if Stroud had put it in because it had the right tone and it got left in, but it didn't quite belong.

Jakob says that magicians sell their souls, but his family is very... um.... let's say they're just not the most scientific people on earth. Smart, yes. Clever, yes. Strong, capable, and brave, yes. Empirical? Not so much. I can't see any of them going as far as Kitty went to try and learn exactly how everything works. We're told that they've learned a bit from seeing part of the books that they bind- but they don't appear to have sat down with extra copies and really educated themsevles they way they could have. I'm not sure that that's really a reference to demonic to the actual nature and source of the demon's powers so much as it is a product of suspicion and bitter hatred.

What I mean to say is... Magic is never really given a definite place in terms of religion, and the nature of the demon's powers is never clearly defined. It's porabable that the first magicians were classified as heretics and satanist by the church, but as the balance of power between clergyman and magicians shifted, people stopped viewing magic in religious terms- excepting a few old superstitions.

I concede the point of references to the devil, though. Either you have the books with you, or you have the world's most awesome memory. I hope it's just memory- that would the most awesome thing ever. :D

i am curently about 60 miles away from the books so it is just memory. But thats bragging. After reading them three times each they sort of get implanted into your brain. Same with harry potter.

First of all, the only reason magicians are in power is because of demons and their books. Other then having a good education, magicians are almost like commoners, though those who have been in the magician power have turned greedy, paranoid or ambitious according to Bartimaeus.
Demons, devils...there might be a connection...

kavka wrote: i am curently about 60 miles away from the books so it is just memory. But thats bragging. After reading them three times each they sort of get implanted into your brain. Same with harry potter.

I have to say, I've read "Prisoner of Azkaban" seven times, I do not remember it nearly that well. Kudos to you! Have a .

I can do that, usually. It has to be an interesting book though.
Anyone read mice n men recently?
Whoohoo go offtopic!!
Wow...