WARNING: This topic will contain spoilers for the entirety of The Hollow Boy. If you haven't read it yet, run, run while you can.









SO. Tantalising hints about the Orpheus Society and the gentleman from the roof. Some mysteries of Lockwood's past revealed. The Problem takes a darker turn with whole city blocks sealed off. New and scary ghosts. Closer ties between Lockwood's and Kipps' teams. And THAT CLIFFHANGER.

i can't say much for the coherency of the following.

[+] Spoiler

okay, first of all, that was a heck of a ride, skully remains an eternal favourite, there are so many goddamn feels, it was an interesting look into the society, GUNS, I loved Holly and I feel a bit sorry for her. And lastly what the frick frack is up with that cliffhanger. Stroud, you can't just do something like that! And to think Barti was bad...

So because I'm an incredible nerd: https://i.imgur.com/pUVGhb9.png I'm working on a chart of the political interplay involved to see if that provides any insights about who exactly is trying to achieve what. Thoughts, suggestions for additions etc welcomed. I need to reread once the UK edition comes out, and I'll take notes with a view to improving the diagram there.

Edit: https://i.imgur.com/dzyCW8M.png added a few more relationships, changed the colour scheme a little

Edit again: https://i.imgur.com/d2skchF.png After rereading the carnival scene to check, I've modified it again on the grounds that Gale never actually harms or is harmed by the carnival attackers. and to clarify various parties' actions related to the Bickerstaff glasses.

And now I have some actual theories, in descending order of confidence. Firstly, based on the above observation, Gale and the carnival attackers are working together, which means Gale is not actually a friend of Penelope Fittes. Secondly, though we have very little information on the actors behind the giant Bickerstaff glass, in terms of their broad goals they align best with the carnival attackers and Gale (who may even have learnt enough from his encounter with the Bickerstaff glass in book 2 to seek to replicate it on a larger scale in book 3). Thirdly, if the above is true, given Penelope Fittes' association with the Orpheus Society, the Society is in fact no friend of the operators of the Bickerstaff glass, and is therefore on the anti-Problem side.

As an alternative to parts 2 and 3 of the above, if we instead link the Orpheus Society to the operators of the Bickerstaff glass (though there's little actual evidence for this in terms of observed actions, just the implications of the name Orpheus), this would place Gale and the carnival attackers as Well-Intentioned Extremists attempting to stymie the Orpheus Society's destructive research. I'm not sure how Gale attempting to acquire the Bickerstaff glass in book two fits into this, however.

Perhaps more plausibly, if we keep the carnival attackers as well-intentioned extremists attempting to halt the Orpheus Society's research, and place Gale instead as an agent of the Orpheus society, this would mean he wished to acquire the Bickerstaff glass for the Orpheus society.

Hmm.

Loved it! And i predicted Lockwood was the hollow boy halfway through the book. Lol

I found a lot of good and meh with The Hollow Boy.

The overall atmosphere is incredible. The deterioration of London society, the various parties at work - what really interested me was the creation of a huge "mirror" created in the prison. Whoever controls DEPRAC must have some hand in the creation of the mirror, as Barnes refused to even acknowledge Lockwood when he brought it up.

Skull = fantastic. Always hilarious, and his growing relationship with Lucy is intriguing, especially once we find out who he is. He mentions that he wanted to return, and not be put to rest. This is probably why Type Three are so rare, if we put aside the talent required to communicate with Type Threes.

The actual story between Lockwood and Co was not nearly as interesting. Lucy's distaste of Holly certainly makes sense, but far too much emphasis was given to it in comparison to something I found far more interesting - her growing desire to comprehend Visitors. Yes it ties with her interactions with Lockwood and her, given that they all save each others' life at one point or another, but it really was far too distracting and uninteresting in comparison to the changing world.

Still with the ending I wonder if we'll go into the next book with Lucy working with Kipps' team, given the open offer to join Fittes. After all, there is a spot in his team with Ned Shaw's demise. It should be especially interesting as Kipps is now in a higher position and she would be working with another Listener (Godwin). If she does end up doing that, I wonder what would happen with her and the skull.

One also can't help but be suspicious of Rotwell, given his popularity, his position, his plans to subdue the population, the seemingly murderous death of the Carnival attacker that he killed, and the sudden appearance of Rotwell agents at the prison.

I'm also a little interested in the world outside of Britain. Are they also affected by the problem? So far London is such a bubble world, and I would love some more insight to other countries.

Nero wrote:Still with the ending I wonder if we'll go into the next book with Lucy working with Kipps' team, given the open offer to join Fittes. After all, there is a spot in his team with Ned Shaw's demise. It should be especially interesting as Kipps is now in a higher position and she would be working with another Listener (Godwin). If she does end up doing that, I wonder what would happen with her and the skull.

One also can't help but be suspicious of Rotwell, given his popularity, his position, his plans to subdue the population, the seemingly murderous death of the Carnival attacker that he killed, and the sudden appearance of Rotwell agents at the prison.

I'm also a little interested in the world outside of Britain. Are they also affected by the problem? So far London is such a bubble world, and I would love some more insight to other countries.

I really don't see Lucy joining Fittes - her reason for resigning is that she's putting her colleagues in danger. Joining another agency doesn't solve that. Also, the book's called Lockwood & Co,

I do share your concerns about Rotwell though - in particular, the line he says at the carnival is almost a word-for-word translation of "panem et circenses" (hi Hunger Games fans), and the net effect of the attack on the carnival is that the unrest is suppressed - which the carnival alone would likely not have achieved. I think I need to add him to my diagram.

There's various mentions of ghost-hunting gear being imported from other countries, which implies the Problem is global. And from the livechats with Stroud, the Problem has to be global to have affected the global economy, though Britain seems to be the worst hit, and international ghost hunters likely have different methods to the UK's.

Sentynel wrote:I really don't see Lucy joining Fittes - her reason for resigning is that she's putting her colleagues in danger. Joining another agency doesn't solve that. Also, the book's called Lockwood & Co,

I agree with all of that wholeheartedly. But when she resigns, do you think she'll really give up being an agent? She certainly could go on investigating on her own and building her Talent, but she doesn't really have the resources to do so. The easiest way for her to expand her Talent is through Fittes, in my opinion. Of course she won't stay there long - she'll somehow be back at Lockwood, no doubt, and I will enjoy the new dynamic.

wrote:There's various mentions of ghost-hunting gear being imported from other countries, which implies the Problem is global. And from the livechats with Stroud, the Problem has to be global to have affected the global economy, though Britain seems to be the worst hit, and international ghost hunters likely have different methods to the UK's.

Ah, I forgot about that. Still, like in Bartimaeus, in Nathaniel's perspectives they mention Asia, America, Europe, etc. Just a few paragraphs mentioned, but it still really built the world, especially whenever they mentioned a foreign entity, and I think we'll see more of that in time.

Also very nicely done diagrams. Clean and clear.

Fittes is even more by-the-book than Lockwood & Co. If she joins, they could stick her on boring Type 1 cases for months, until she proves her self. And they have adult handlers who would never let her get close enough to a Type 2 to talk.

I think she is going to take the skull and be a researcher.

Lockwood & Co have Holly and they will have to hire other kids now that they are so famous. They aren't the same firm Lucy joined in book one. It's time for her to move on.

I really hope the Other Side from the mirror is the same as the one in the barti universe. Don't remember if we discussed this already

She still wants to connect to ghosts and find the root of the problem there. I think she might go vigilante and/or join Flo for resources. She would still get her adrenaline rush and combat ghosts, but without a team to put in danger. Incredibly dangerous, but this Lucy we're talking about.

I loved Skully in this book, and I think we now know why type 3's are so rare. Who would be mad enough to want to come back from the dead. My theory is that Skully had something to do with the start of the problem; he knows a lot about ghosts and their nature, and has a reason to come back as a ghosts. In my opinion he wanted to find out the consequences of starting the problem.

Further graph update: https://i.imgur.com/fdy9fPh.png Now with Rotwell, the Winkmans (Winkmen?), and a couple of extra relationship lines.

https://i.imgur.com/LJ7WL7n.png And another update, having re-read it, adding the skull and Barnes' "advisors", and tweaking a couple of relationships.

I am increasingly convinced that Steve Rotwell is actively responsible for the carnival attack. The carnival itself was never designed to calm the populace; it was always simply a vehicle for the attack, which would have the *real* effect of shocking the populace back into line. Evidence for the above:
1) Holly, a former employee of Rotwell upper management, describes Rotwell as violent and ambitious.
2) He comes heavily armed to the carnival, and his life is never in any real danger, either from the ghosts (none of which land near him, and which he only approaches with the aid of some of his agents) or from the attackers (who don't target him).
3) He kills one of the attackers when he's prevented from reaching his target by Lucy, handily preventing him from answering any questions.

This of course raises some interesting questions about the relationship between Fittes and Rotwell, as it means he's made a pretty serious effort to have her killed, although it's hard to judge how successful he thought it was going to be.

Then, of course, there's the suspiciously rapid arrival of Rotwell agents to tidy up the giant Bickerstaff device, and prevent George from investigating it further. It's not clear how they found out about this, but it seems likely to me that it's related to the mystery un-uniformed advisors who show up with Barnes, as I can't see who else would have told them.

Additionally, if Rotwell is to some degree behind the Bickerstaff device, then the carnival ruse was necessary to continue whatever was being done with it - writing off a significant chunk of London to ghosts isn't too much of an impediment, but an openly rebellious population is, and threatened the ability to continue the work.


If the above is true regarding a Fittes/Rotwell hostility,l then this also raises interesting questions about the Orpheus Society. If Fittes is supportive of the Society, and I suspect that Rotwell is involved with the construction of the giant Bickerstaff device, does this place Orpheus on the "good guys' side"? Alternatively, it could be indicative of some sort of schism between more and less aggressive research methods.


Edit: on a far less serious note, did anyone else notice the George/Flo shipping going on?