Just some things I thought it would be fun to discuss, in terms of the bart universe:

What is this "Arabian Confederacy" mentioned briefly in Ptolemy's Gate?

wrote:The hotel manager was a small, amply padded lady of middle age. Her bone-gray hair was swept back and fixed in place by a piece of polished whalebone. She received her visitors with polite reserve. "You are from the Sheban Embassy?"

I made a courteous bow. "That is correct, madam.Your perspicacity is beyond compare"

"Well, the girl just told me. But I was not aware that Sheba was an independent state. I thought it was part of the Arabian Confederacy."

Does this have anything to do with the aftermath of World War I and the dissolving of the Ottoman Empire?

Another thing I've thought about is, how could the the upsurge of magic in centuries past have essentially suppressed religion in the bart universe? Jstroud knows enough about how it spread that the Eastern (Byzantine) Roman Empire still exists; The fall of Rome referred to in The Golem's Eye is the Western half, with Romulus Augustus specifically stated.

I find it highly unlikely that magic was not employed by the Greek Orthodox or the Catholics as they gained power in their hierarchy. Let's be honest, those guys were playing for power just as hard as all the rest.

There's even proof canonically as well:

wrote:(440s) Syria: Hairy ascetics, known as stylites, spend years perched atop pillars as acts of extreme spiritual devotion. To prove their faith they summon djinn to beguile them with temptations. Bartimaeus doesn't bother with temptations, but tickles them until they fall off.

The Stylites were unique to the Eastern Roman Empire and Christianity, for more clarification. If the stylites can summon spirits, then I wouldn't doubt that the Patriarchs in cities such as Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, etcetera would be able to do so as well.

Following this theory, an upsurge of magic would be a moot point; a stagnation seems more likely to me.

Think of the difference between the magician priesthood in Egypt before the events of ROS and the events of Ptolemy's Gate, for comparison. Their power weakened, didn't it?

So going back to the Catholics, I'd say something similar might have happened. The history we know with the Protestants probably didn't help. What do you guys think?

I always loved the semi-historical accuracy in the background of the story :) Of course, more modern history was increasingly altered. quite clever actually.

So, as far as I know, Sheba hasn't existed since ancient times. It's where Yemen is today. I think the scene in PG was meant as humour because Barti hasn't kept up with the current political situation (and maybe a a nod to RoS?). At some other point he mentions being the servant of Zarbustibal of Yemen, who refined the Dismal Flame to become the Shrivelling Fire. That character was mostly made up, as far as I can tell from a quick google search.


Ah, the Byzantine Empire. A recurrent theme in history as told by Barti is that when magic has been around a long time, resilience starts to build up in the population and effectively begins to lose its power. We all know that the Christian Eastern Roman Empire succeeded an already long legacy of Roman Imperial Magic. Also, it's Syria. Syria's been home to many of the great civiliations for thousands of years. It's plausible to suspect that magic (even of a lowly sort) is just much more common practice in these places than in backwater forests like Britain. :P


The First World War is a good question. I don't remember it ever being mentioned in the books at all. Barti says in AS that he was an ambulance driver in the 'Great War' which is probably the same idea, but it wasn't the same situation as our first world war. That war was basically a rebellion in Europe against already-entrenched British rule. The vestiges of the conflict are still present in the Italian campaigns that Devereaux brings up in AS.

I don't actually remember the Ottoman Empire ever being mentioned, actually. :(

I love the alternate-history lore as well. Although I caught the Sheba reference, the Arabian Confederacy one went right over my head.

wrote:Ah, the Byzantine Empire. A recurrent theme in history as told by Barti is that when magic has been around a long time, resilience starts to build up in the population and effectively begins to lose its power. We all know that the Christian Eastern Roman Empire succeeded an already long legacy of Roman Imperial Magic.

Wow, this is a late reply on my part! Anyhow, this brings up a lot of interesting questions; I would think one of the reasons it got so bad in the city of Rome itself would be like you said, the buildup of magic in the population over such a long period of time. This is not quite so for the city of Byzantium, which is still a bit "new" since it only really would have started attracting magicians after Constantine I reshaped it into the city of Constantinople for his own needs.

wrote:Also, it's Syria. Syria's been home to many of the great civiliations for thousands of years. It's plausible to suspect that magic (even of a lowly sort) is just much more common practice in these places than in backwater forests like Britain.

Well yes, but my point is that the area which is today modern day Syria was at one point part of the Eastern Roman Empire. The magicians would flock to the cities that held power and apostolic authority anyhow such as Constantinople (of course), Alexandria, Antioch, etcetera.

Also as a general note the stylite movement wasn't just in Syria; you're forgetting figures like Saint Daniel the Stylite who set up his pillar four miles north of Constantinople, or Lazaros of Mt. Galesion.

Something interesting though when reading about Byzantine saints, is that you'll often come across "exorcisms" of sorts. A lot of miracles come down basically to the saint ridding someone of demons sent by wicked magicians, or even converting the wicked magicians themselves, getting them to repent. Interesting stuff.

Long story short, I want to know what went down with Catholicism, I guess. Considering the trilogy takes place in England, knowing how that breakdown occurred seems to be key here. Also, the protestants of course. Did any of these players become hostile to magicians themselves, or was it a decline in power similar to the example I brought up before, with the crumbling structure of the Ancient Egyptian priesthood? Also, what about the rise of Islam?

We know the spread happened; from the bart chronology, there is a mention of Haroun al-Rashid in 800 (described as a magician no less), who was an actual historical figure. The Islamic Golden Age still happened.

wrote:The First World War is a good question. I don't remember it ever being mentioned in the books at all. Barti says in AS that he was an ambulance driver in the 'Great War' which is probably the same idea, but it wasn't the same situation as our first world war. That war was basically a rebellion in Europe against already-entrenched British rule. The vestiges of the conflict are still present in the Italian campaigns that Devereaux brings up in AS.

God, the world war question still bothers me. If the Americas participated, did they do so while still under colonial authority? I also have to wonder what's going on with Canada and you know, whatever colonies are in existence in South America.

wrote:I don't actually remember the Ottoman Empire ever being mentioned, actually.

I know right? Considering that most of the REALLY big historical divergences happened around Gladstone going Imperial or whatever, I'd wager a guess that it still was a thing though.

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Come to think of it I also put together a timeline for Faquarl recently, from what I've been able to piece from the books and the official bart chronology. Perhaps I should post that in a separate thread?

Dear lord, you all know an awful lot about history. I covered the basic, so I can follow the conversation, but still.

Has the industrial revolution ever been mentioned? They seem to be a bit lacking in technology...

No but I personally just assume it happened nonetheless, due to the presence of cars, planes, and lighting and such.

My friends' words were true!
Jonah is brought back to life :D

Sorry friend! My explanation as to my absence is in my draw thread, haha

I read it already
we thought you were dead!

We were about to send out search parties and dig up graves!

I've read enough Lockwood and Co to tell you how much of a bad idea that would have been

well, we don't have to do that now you're back

Now you how much risks we're prepared to take for one of our own.

we are gonna dig up everyone from the forums who dies

I knew it was a good idea to buy those spades and torches.

yes, they still might come in handy

See, this is why neither of you got accepted into any of the major ghost hunting agencies.

What, because we're willing to take risks? I wouldn't call that a bad thing, especially if you don't want to wet your pants every night.

- said Lockwood before something terrible happened.

are YOU in a major ghost hunting agency, Jonah?