Considering the whole series, who do you think were the good guys, the demons or the magicians?

---

Personally, I think the demons were essentially good. True, they did commit some wrong acts but that was because they had been trapped as slaves for centuries. Even the most powerful demons showed signs of mercy while the powerful magicians were cold and hard.

I think it's less black and white and more grey. Especially since for the most part, the spirits just do what they are told to by magicians, which can be good or bad.

Considering that Farqual's demons and the magical government are portrayed more negatively than the other spirits and magicians, I think Stroud was making a point about power misguiding people.

haha... I start with Good Guys/Bad Guys and you go into a philosophical discussion about abusing power. Then again, you're the one with 2,000 posts.

I dunno who are the good guys then... But, I think that spirits kick bu** are sightly better than douche-bags magicians.

Damonenkopf wrote:haha... I start with Good Guys/Bad Guys and you go into a philosophical discussion about abusing power. Then again, you're the one with 2,000 posts.

Because one of the great things about Barti is that it isn't that clear cut, but more complicated and more interesting.

Welcome first. And I agree with Fuzzy. No one is inherently bad. Magicians force themselves to believe that all spirits are wicked and would do terrible things to them if they are not strictly controlled. This makes them despise & fear them. And though one feels that spirits have more reason to feel angry because they are ill-treated, we don't know how they would react if all magicians were kind, loving people but still made the spirits do their dirty work. Would they take advantage of the good magicians? And are magicians right in the first place to compel spirits to do their bidding? Or is it just the nature of things?

Why are there only two options?

Anyways, both are misguided, by power and by experience.

Magicians have always been taught that spirits will harm them when given any chance, and so enslave spirits, preventing them from liberty in work or painfree methods to punish.

Spirits have always harmed magicians because no one will every trust them to let them be free. So might as well try to get out of slavery.

Perhaps the real issue is who struck first. Instead of utilizing a higher resource, magicians of old had enslaved spirits when they discovered them, not caring for them. But spirits of old must have given some offense to make magicians mistrust them.

But now it's just who can fix this issue. Whoever does will be the good guys.

Neither, by default.
Spirits (they dislike 'Demon', you know ;) ) do what they're told, for fear of punishment or death. What they do can be evil, but very few are themselves evil.
Nouda, Faquarl and Jabor fall in this catagory.
When a spirit begins enjoying his work, dirty-wise, he's crossed the line, but not of his own accord. There are no born-evil spirits, just ones driven there by magicians.

Likewise, magicians are not born evil, but are trained that way (also under fear of punishment, less death) by their masters. The cycle is rarely broken, so magicians can be said to be evil, but can still redeem, be redeemed, or just not be jackasses, like Nat towards the end.
No clear-cut answer either way, but I voted for the Spirits.

Probably echoing Nero, I think that a commoner choice should be added. Without the temptation of power, commoners are less tempted to evil. However, magicians do have a stewardship, however reluctant they may carry it out. Whether to keep opinion, or ego, or dissuade revolt, magicians do to some extent take care of the populace. Said populace could probably do it better (ignoring the usual corruption), but give the magicians that much.
But then again, the fact that of a triangle, magicians are enslaving the other two points, weighs against them. How you weigh these aforementioned points is what determines your choice.

I disagree with one of Nero's inferences, however.

Nero wrote:Magicians have always been taught that spirits will harm them when given any chance, and so enslave spirits, preventing them from liberty in work or painfree methods to punish.

Spirits have always harmed magicians because no one will every trust them to let them be free. So might as well try to get out of slavery.

All of that is the magicians fault. The status quo, in it's purest form, is purely the magicians' doing. Shamans, Ptolemy, and others have all demonstrated that the status quo can be changed, modified, or reversed. It's just paranoia that began the mistrust: summoning something to your world bring with it suspicion. Apollo 11 astronauts were in quarantine, though it proved groundless. The paranoia perpetuates itself because magicians know what they do, have the spirits do for them and on their behalf, is wrong. The ones that don't, or have spirits that enjoy their work (evil, or like Simpkin), allow them far more freedom than your average guy. Lovelace wouldn't allow Faquarl the freedom Simpkin had, now would he?

Otherwise, yeah, whoever fixes it wins.
Kitty and Ptolemy ftw.

Would magicians summon spirits just for fun? Just to maintain a good relationship with them? Nah, I think the nature of spirits is such that they are born to serve. They are brought into existence by the summons of the magicians. I think a fair relationship between the two can only be maintained if the spirits are left in OP & not forced to come to Earth. Twas true, they don't have 'individuality' there. But one can't expect all magicians to go through the process of summoning spirits & not use them to their advantage. Why summon them in the first place then? Slavery will exist, but the 2 can establish a more kinder, understanding relationship.

you guys make this to complicated lol :P

personnaly I don't think either are good guys but if pushed I think slavery is just pushes the magicians higher up mt. morally dubious

MAGICIANS

The Footstool is obviously the light of moral guidance in this series.

nathanielandbartimaeus wrote:Would magicians summon spirits just for fun? Just to maintain a good relationship with them? Nah, I think the nature of spirits is such that they are born to serve. They are brought into existence by the summons of the magicians. I think a fair relationship between the two can only be maintained if the spirits are left in OP & not forced to come to Earth. Twas true, they don't have 'individuality' there. But one can't expect all magicians to go through the process of summoning spirits & not use them to their advantage. Why summon them in the first place then? Slavery will exist, but the 2 can establish a more kinder, understanding relationship.

-ignores Apollo-

Ptolemy gave Bart freedom- he danced 'tween the worlds.
That's the only way it'd be even.

Everyone has not got Ptolemy's heart or intellectual incline. No other magician would summon a spirit just to show him/her the world and then travel to OP with them.