| Welcome. We hope you enjoy your visit to Bartiforums.com Since 2005 we've been a place for Bart fans to come together, discuss the books and other things. Jonathan Stroud himself is also a member of our community and you have the chance to talk to him. All you need to do is register an account. Once registering you'll have the ability to set up and customise your profile, and access the options to post replies. Registration is completely free. There are no costs for access to any part of our board. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: (Advanced Login) |
| Drugs. Substances. Controlled, or Not. | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Oct 16 2010, 11:57 PM (2,690 Views) | |
| Dansariki | Oct 16 2010, 11:57 PM Post #1 |
|
Higher Spirit
|
So, first, hello everyone, been awhile. Second, what's the view on drugs? Whether it be caffeine, acetaminophen, or ecstasy, where're y'all at? Proposition 19 in California, the adjacent state, will officially legalize Cannabis, despite the fact that it's a Federally illegal substance. Ah, the beauty of Federalism. I've drunk alcohol before, am a huge caffeine fan (though less that I would be, had I the funds), and have tried some other things. What about you? |
|
Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, and Corruption Destroys. Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~Isaac Asimov There was never a good war, or a bad peace. ~Benjamin Franklin You can kill a man but you can't kill an idea. ~Medgar Evers CaffeineRiot.com | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| Captain Internets | Oct 17 2010, 12:02 AM Post #2 |
![]()
Marid
|
Alcohol is awesome. Plenty of other drugs should clearly be legalised and licenced as alcohol is. It's so unbelievably ridiculous that substances that are less harmful and addictive than alcohol or tobacco are illegal. It really is impossible to morally justify making such drugs illegal. I can put whatever the f*ck I want into my body, thank you, and it probably wouldn't hurt anyone else like frigging legal tobacco does. Yeah I'm bitter. I really f*cking want to try LSD. Edited by Captain Internets, Oct 17 2010, 12:03 AM.
|
sentynel is gay
| |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| Sentynel | Oct 17 2010, 12:25 AM Post #3 |
|
Nothing But The Rain
![]()
|
I don't use any recreational drugs myself (caffeine included), but yeah, what Dave said. Alcohol and tobacco are legal by virtue of the length of time they've been (ab)used in society, not for any reasons relating to the actual harm done. And it drives me nuts when politicians are sat there spouting bollocks to try and defend the current system, because the only reason I can think of for their mind-bogglingly dedicated defence of the current system against all evidence is that they're sat firmly in the wallets of the big alcohol and tobacco companies. One particularly staggering example is the recent case here of Professor David Nutt being fired from the government's drugs advisory board for daring to provide scientific advice that went against their preconceptions. Gods forbid scientific advisers provide scientific advice! Here's my proposed law changes: a) Decriminalise possession for personal use of *all* drugs. Criminal punishments for it do precisely zero good. Instead, increase support for rehab programs and focus on the dealers. b) Legalise and tax everything less dangerous than alcohol. For "less dangerous than alcohol", see this graph from a study in the Lancet (Nutt, David, Leslie A King, William Saulsbury, Colin Blakemore. "Development of a rational scale to assess the harm of drugs of potential misuse" The Lancet 2007; 369:1047-1053): Most deaths from those drugs can be attributed to contamination, being cut with crap/other drugs, etc. Legalisation and regulation prevents that; people know if they buy, say, an ecstasy tab it's going to be pure e and not cut with who knows what crap with who knows what cross effects and stuff. c) Educate people on the *actual* risks, not the isolated horror stories that make up current drugs education. Let people make informed decisions. In general people are bright enough to notice that not everybody who takes ecstasy or whatever drops dead in spectacular media-frenzy fashion, and therefore quite rightly dismiss everything they're taught in schools. d) Control usage through taxation. Hitting people in the wallets is vastly more effective than "ZOMG YOU'RE ALL GOING TO DROP DEAD!" Use extra tax revenue to fund health services where necessary. Encourage through lower taxation usage of less harmful drugs, especially reduction in alcohol consumption. Currently alcohol is a factor in a truly enormous number of ambulance and police calls. You don't see people on pot out beating the crap out of each other, for example. |
|
Sentynel - Head Ninja, Admin, Keeper of the Ban Afrit, Official Forum Graphics Guy, and forum code debugger. A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| Dansariki | Oct 17 2010, 12:38 AM Post #4 |
|
Higher Spirit
|
Yep. And yep. Cannabis (which I've never actually done, interestingly) is a Schedule 1 substance here. Tough as it gets. But what about the continuation of a poverty cycle? Wouldn't the resulting cost in social welfare outweigh the tax benefits? |
|
Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, and Corruption Destroys. Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~Isaac Asimov There was never a good war, or a bad peace. ~Benjamin Franklin You can kill a man but you can't kill an idea. ~Medgar Evers CaffeineRiot.com | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| Sentynel | Oct 17 2010, 12:44 AM Post #5 |
|
Nothing But The Rain
![]()
|
Criminalising drugs doesn't seem to be working very well at reducing usage rates, does it? Illegal drugs are everywhere. With rehab rather than punishment, sensible educational campaigns, and price inflation through taxation, you'll be able to control things much better. Hell, things will even get better if you can push people off drugs like alcohol which currently have enormous social welfare costs onto something less harmful. |
|
Sentynel - Head Ninja, Admin, Keeper of the Ban Afrit, Official Forum Graphics Guy, and forum code debugger. A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| rubberchickenben | Oct 17 2010, 02:32 AM Post #6 |
|
Marid
|
I'm for complete liberty, no matter how affecting the substance is. If people want to flooping 'eck up their lives, that's their prerogative. Recreational drugs in particular should be completely legal. I can see why people would want to continue to ban heroin, for example. |
| I wish I were a cat-dragon | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| Mwamba | Oct 17 2010, 06:26 AM Post #7 |
|
dancing piranha
|
Better social welfare than 'defense' spending. I mean, the war on drugs has been going since at least the 70s (can't quite remember.) All these years and drugs are still widespread enough. I mean, people complained about Iraq...well admittedly I didn't agree with that either, but still. At least that only lasted seven years. Not to mention my source, who was in the military for this in the 70s, pretty much brags about his epic stories during battles. Basically, they would invade, confiscate the weed, and troop members would celebrate their good deeds by taking a puff themselves. |
| 流口水的婊子和猴子的笨儿子。 | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| nathanielandbartimaeus | Oct 17 2010, 10:24 AM Post #8 |
|
Marid
|
I agree with you all. It is way better to make drugs legal (for all the reasons mentioned above) and let people do whatever they want with their bodies. And drug suppliers are known to introduce poor children into taking drugs or recruiting them for their shadowy dealings which all end up with them being addicts (with them having made no informed choice of their own)) and involved in gang wars like the kinds that take place in parts of Mexico and Chicago. Making drugs legal would stop all that too. Drugs, prostitution and betting should all be made legal. |
|
"If the bee disappears from the surface of the earth, man would have no more than four years to live. No more bees, no more pollination ... no more men!" - Einstein "I like quoting Einstein. Know why? Because nobody dares contradict you." - Studs Terkel. <@Ximenez> Sentynel: But i have a life? No. Qed. | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| FuzzyLobster | Oct 17 2010, 08:27 PM Post #9 |
|
Marid
|
*not surprised Dansariki was the one to start this topic* *also not surprised Sent wrote a page-long response* ![]() That being said, I can pretty much sum up my views with: I honestly don't care whether or not people do drugs (although I may not necessarily wish to associate too much with someone who goes through life high all the time). I don't. I think it's flooping 'ecking stupid, but anyone of age has the right to make their own choice about it, as long as they know the risks. |
![]() "Few injustices [can be] deeper than the denial of an opportunity to strive or even to hope, by a limit imposed from without, but falsely identified as lying within.” ― Stephen Jay Gould FOUNDER OF THE SAM THE BARMAN FANCLUB: QUOTE IN YOUR SIG TO JOIN | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| Sentynel | Oct 17 2010, 08:31 PM Post #10 |
|
Nothing But The Rain
![]()
|
Gee, am I that predictable now!? Concise words of wisdom there. |
|
Sentynel - Head Ninja, Admin, Keeper of the Ban Afrit, Official Forum Graphics Guy, and forum code debugger. A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| FuzzyLobster | Oct 17 2010, 09:03 PM Post #11 |
|
Marid
|
Thanks. Well, okay, except for chocolate. I'M ONLY HUMAN, OKAY! ![]()
Edited by FuzzyLobster, Oct 17 2010, 09:05 PM.
|
![]() "Few injustices [can be] deeper than the denial of an opportunity to strive or even to hope, by a limit imposed from without, but falsely identified as lying within.” ― Stephen Jay Gould FOUNDER OF THE SAM THE BARMAN FANCLUB: QUOTE IN YOUR SIG TO JOIN | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| Canis Lupus | Oct 18 2010, 03:19 AM Post #12 |
|
Foliot
|
I thought Cannabis was already legal in California? I know its legal here in Denver. And I would rather it be legal and be able to sell in such shops that are regulated because buying it off the streets is far more dangerous. It cane be laced and such. |
|
| |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| indie2 | Oct 18 2010, 07:58 AM Post #13 |
|
Foliot
|
OK, i had no idea how many people were for drugs! anyway. I'm against them. they should be illegal, the dangerous one's like canabis and heroine, etc. and no i don't think it'll clean up england (or the world) or stop anybody doing it but it will work as a detterent and make people think before taking them and make the more sensible people think otherwise. and as for the people who say people are fine to *uck up there own lives. my dad smoked all his life and eventually died of cancer when i was eight leaving me and my 3 sisters (all of who are younger than me) to be raised by our mother who'd, along with us, had just watched my dad die of cancer for a year so maybe you should all think about the people they know before saying that because it's not just their lives they mess up. my dad had a fag put in his hand from the age of tweleve by his parents who'd always smoked, he just couldn't quit, it was incredably difficult for him. It's the same with drugs except it's worse because it has a phycological effect on the person taking it. I don't take anything, except alcohol occasionally. i don't drink coffee cause i don't like it but my sister loves it so she does. obviously none of us smoke. Edited by indie2, Oct 18 2010, 08:55 AM.
|
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| nathanielandbartimaeus | Oct 18 2010, 09:30 AM Post #14 |
|
Marid
|
I'm sorry to hear about your family. Yeah, one thing about drugs and smoking, alcohol consumption etc. (though they all come under the category of drugs) is the effect they have on a family. But even if they are made illegal, people won't stop taking it. Banning substances has never worked because there has always been a demand for it and where there is a will there are a thousand ways to circumvent laws. It is a pity your grandparents introduced your father to smoking at such a young age. And yeah, I suppose they got into smoking because of the easy availability of cigarettes (which is because smoking has never been illegal). But everything has a positive side and a negative one. I mean, look at technology. Or nuclear power or anything. You can use it make bombs or choose to generate electricity from it. It depends on the person using it. I'm not saying drugs etc. has as many benefits as technology but there are people who use it for recreation, for stimulus, to experience something new or for a positive experience etc. And I suppose you do know that many drugs that are used by people also happen to be used for medication, so it is not all bad. There just has to be more awareness. And, like Sent said, educate people about the facts. I suppose if your dad's school or some of his other relative had stepped in to prevent him from getting addicted in the first place, things would have been better. And remember, there are some people who genuinely want to have it for whatever their reasons. Just the fact that it can be misused (and yeah, I agree it has been misused an awful lot) shouldn't make people ban something. People just need to be educated properly and, majority of the times, they will make the right choice themselves. If they still want to go ahead and spoil their life and that of their families, there is really nothing you can do. On a different note, I had read a joke about HIV. I don't remember it properly, but it was something about banning sex to prevent spread of AIDS. |
|
"If the bee disappears from the surface of the earth, man would have no more than four years to live. No more bees, no more pollination ... no more men!" - Einstein "I like quoting Einstein. Know why? Because nobody dares contradict you." - Studs Terkel. <@Ximenez> Sentynel: But i have a life? No. Qed. | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| Sentynel | Oct 18 2010, 09:59 AM Post #15 |
|
Nothing But The Rain
![]()
|
I'm not for drugs. As I said, I don't use them myself. My opinions are based on the simple observation that people use them anyway, banned or not, so therefore what are more effective methods of reducing use? Cannabis and heroin are hardly comparable (see the graph I posted earlier). I don't support legalising the really dangerous stuff like heroin and cocaine (though I do support decriminalisation of personal use, for reasons posted earlier - users need help, not punishment. This was recently done in Portugal - all drug usage was decriminalised - and they saw no rise in usage rates). But cannabis is no more dangerous, and arguably significantly less so, than alcohol and tobacco, our friendly neighbourhood legal drugs. It's certainly not good for you, but it doesn't make you physically dependent, unlike tobacco, and is very difficult to overdose on, unlike alcohol (not to mention the social effects of alcohol - cannabis doesn't make you violent or inclined to risk taking, unlike alcohol). I sincerely wish stuff like that didn't need to happen. I've seen my own relatives die painfully from smoking-induced cancer, I've seen it happen to other families. I've seen people die of liver failure from alcoholism, people with their brains melted by alcoholism-induced Korsakoff's syndrome. But ultimately, it is their right to self-destruct, if they choose to. As n&b says, you're never going to stop that happening by just making drugs illegal. Illegal drug use is rife, and there are plenty of other dangerous things around and casually accepted (ever stepped in a car?). Educate people sensibly and realistically on the effects of drugs, give them the help and support they need to quit, and let them make their choices with full knowledge of the consequences. Which is more helpful to people who, for whatever reasons, have gotten addicted to drugs and want to stop? Providing medical help and support, or calling them criminals, fining them money they haven't got or throwing them in a prison which is, guess what, full of illegal drugs? (I've heard former prisoners speculate that the guards turn a blind eye to the levels of drug availability because the prisoners are easier to control if they're all stoned off their heads the whole time.) |
|
Sentynel - Head Ninja, Admin, Keeper of the Ban Afrit, Official Forum Graphics Guy, and forum code debugger. A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way | |
| Offline Profile | _Quote Top |
| 2 users reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · General Chat · Next Topic » |

Search
Members
Rules
IRC
Help
Settings
Messaging (
Sign Out





7:22 PM Jul 11