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Magicians and Magical Attacks; Thoughts on sources of power
Topic Started: Aug 9 2009, 02:29 AM (2,243 Views)
Umbreo
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Utukku
So I'm reading through the books again, and some things occur to me.

We're told that the real source of a magician's power is simply the spirits under that magician's command. My question is: Is that their ONLY source of power?

Most evidence indicates yes, but there are these little bits and pieces that might suggest otherwise.

What I mean is, Some magicians seem to be able to launch magical attacks, or use magic themselves without the aid of djinn. For example, in AOS -

(Simon Lovelace has just regained the amulet in Underwood's study.)
" . . . Underwood uttered the words of a defensive charm. A shimmering green net of protective threads rose to up enfold him."
(Then a bit later on)
"Swathed in his defensive nexus, Underwood sent a bolt of blue fire crackling towards Lovelace."

So it seems that underwood is able to perform magic himself, without the aid of a djinn.

There could be many ways to interpret this, which is why I want to see what you think.

Firstly, we know that spirits can perform these magical spells at will, so it could be that Underwood is only commanding a djinni that he has previously summoned, but which remains invisible. This would mean that the answer to my question is yes. I'm not sure about this though. If it was a hidden spirit, wouldn't Underwood just make a hand sign and it would come to his aid? And as it was Bartimaeus narrating, wouldn't he have seen the spirit, and said that it was, in fact, a spirit? And it does say that "Underwood sent a bolt of blue fire, etc."

Secondly, we know that magicians can do these sorts of things when in possesion of a magical object, which a an object in which a spirit is trapped. It might be possible that Underwood was using one such object. But as before, if this was the case, wouldn't Bartimaeus say so?

Thirdly, we know that sometimes a magician can utilize the abilities of spirits already summoned, but not contained within an object. For example, when Nat attacks Lovelace and his buddies with the mites. He didn't need to summon them, only apply the words of direction and control or whatever it was. Is it possible that Underwood was utilizing some magic previously summoned to Earth? Then again, the mites might be classified as a magical object, remembering that they were contained in a glass cube.

Forthly, we see in PG that when a magician summons a spirit into themselves, they can then use magical attacks. I'm not saying that Underwood has done this, because he hasn't, but could it be possible for a magician to summon some form of lesser magic into themselves? Which they, of course, could control. Unlike in PG.

The alternative to these ideas is that magicians DO have power of their own. If this is the case, what is the source of that power? Interesting to think about.
When I set out from the boy's attic window, my head was so full of competing plans and complex strategems that I didn't look where I was going and flew straight into a chimney.

Something symbolic in that. It's what fake freedom does for you.
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Sentynel
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Nothing But The Rain

We asked Stroud about this. If a magician appears to be using magic directly, the spell is actually cast by a hidden/bound spirit.
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Apollo
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Marid
Yeah, a spirit could easily be bound in a ring or something.
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Umbreo
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Utukku
Okay then, consider punishment. When a magician wants to punish a spirit in their service, they speak an incantation and use magic to punish it. Where does that magic come from? A ring, or another spirit? So if a magician wants to punish a spirit they have to summon an additional spirit? Or does the power come from the demon getting punished?
Edited by Umbreo, Aug 9 2009, 07:07 AM.
When I set out from the boy's attic window, my head was so full of competing plans and complex strategems that I didn't look where I was going and flew straight into a chimney.

Something symbolic in that. It's what fake freedom does for you.
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nathanielandbartimaeus
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Marid
I think its the pentacle. I read it somewhere (I think). Guess the pentacle gets its power from the demon. Or it just has some power of its own.
"If the bee disappears from the surface of the earth, man would have no more than four years to live. No more bees, no more pollination ... no more men!" - Einstein
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Apollo
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Umbreo
Aug 9 2009, 07:06 AM
Okay then, consider punishment. When a magician wants to punish a spirit in their service, they speak an incantation and use magic to punish it. Where does that magic come from? A ring, or another spirit? So if a magician wants to punish a spirit they have to summon an additional spirit? Or does the power come from the demon getting punished?
Incantations are something entirely different from using spirits for magical uses; anyone (magicians) can perform incantations.
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Umbreo
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Utukku
Apollo
Aug 9 2009, 04:38 PM
Umbreo
Aug 9 2009, 07:06 AM
Okay then, consider punishment. When a magician wants to punish a spirit in their service, they speak an incantation and use magic to punish it. Where does that magic come from? A ring, or another spirit? So if a magician wants to punish a spirit they have to summon an additional spirit? Or does the power come from the demon getting punished?
Incantations are something entirely different from using spirits for magical uses; anyone (magicians) can perform incantations.
Says who?

So is the incantation the source of the attack, not the bound/hidden spirit like Sent said?

And if you're right, then magicians do have power of their own?

When I set out from the boy's attic window, my head was so full of competing plans and complex strategems that I didn't look where I was going and flew straight into a chimney.

Something symbolic in that. It's what fake freedom does for you.
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Sentynel
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Nothing But The Rain

Punishments draw their power from the pentacle and enchantments binding spirits into a magician's service.I believe the actual power behind the punishment is drawn from the punished spirit through said bindings.
Obviously magicians do have power of their own - different magicians have different strengths, which determine the spirits they can summon - but this can only be used through the summoning and binding enchantments. They can't directly attack or otherwise use magic themselves.
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A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way
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Umbreo
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Utukku
Sounds about right. But I think the strength of a magician that you're referring to is just stamina and skill, not actual magic.
When I set out from the boy's attic window, my head was so full of competing plans and complex strategems that I didn't look where I was going and flew straight into a chimney.

Something symbolic in that. It's what fake freedom does for you.
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nathanielandbartimaeus
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Marid
Yeah, Sent is referring to stamina & skill not magical strength.
"If the bee disappears from the surface of the earth, man would have no more than four years to live. No more bees, no more pollination ... no more men!" - Einstein
"I like quoting Einstein. Know why? Because nobody dares contradict you." - Studs Terkel.
<@Ximenez> Sentynel: But i have a life? No. Qed.
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Dansariki
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Higher Spirit
Which is why, in training for Bart, Nat increased both as fast as possible.
Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, and Corruption Destroys.

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
~Isaac Asimov
There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
~Benjamin Franklin
You can kill a man but you can't kill an idea.
~Medgar Evers

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nathanielandbartimaeus
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Marid
Stamina, I am not so sure. He did swimming but that was not for Bart specifically (just a part of his curriculum). And often he seemed to be described as a weak person. He relied more on his determination than stamina.
"If the bee disappears from the surface of the earth, man would have no more than four years to live. No more bees, no more pollination ... no more men!" - Einstein
"I like quoting Einstein. Know why? Because nobody dares contradict you." - Studs Terkel.
<@Ximenez> Sentynel: But i have a life? No. Qed.
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Dansariki
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Higher Spirit
Well, yes, but it does mention he worked on his stamina particularly for Bart, as well.
It's part of their curriculum, yes, but he went to new heights for it.
Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, and Corruption Destroys.

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
~Isaac Asimov
There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
~Benjamin Franklin
You can kill a man but you can't kill an idea.
~Medgar Evers

CaffeineRiot.com
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Umbreo
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Utukku
It's frequently mentioned throughout the books that it takes a large amount of mental concentration as well as physical stamina when summoning or performing spells etc. Determination helps, I guess, but Nat did try to build up his fitness specifically for the summoning of Bart.
When I set out from the boy's attic window, my head was so full of competing plans and complex strategems that I didn't look where I was going and flew straight into a chimney.

Something symbolic in that. It's what fake freedom does for you.
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Captain Internets
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Marid
Umbreo
Sep 3 2009, 07:03 AM
but Nat did try to build up his fitness specifically for the summoning of Bart.
Did he? O_O I must've missed that...
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