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Creation Vs Evolution.
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Topic Started: Feb 6 2006, 05:31 PM (7,963 Views)
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Jul 2 2006, 05:48 PM
Post #91
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- Krim
- Yesterday, 11:18 PM
...okay.
I'll get the link.
Meanwhile, empirical arguement for God
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Other arguments avail themselves of data beyond definitions and axioms. For example, some of these arguments require only that one assume that a non-random universe able to support life exists. These arguments include:
The Teleological argument, which argues that the universe's order and complexity shows signs of purpose (telos), and that it must have been designed by an intelligent designer with properties that only a god could have. The Anthropic argument focuses on basic facts, such as our existence, to prove God.
The Moral argument argues that objective morality exists and that therefore God exists.
The Transcendental argument for the existence of God, which argues that logic, science, ethics, and other things we take seriously do not make sense if there is no God. Therefore, atheist arguments must ultimately refute themselves if pressed with rigorous consistency. By contrast, there is also a Transcendental Argument for the Non-existence of God.
EDIT: Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27...tological_proof
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Shame of the Super Son
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Krim
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Jul 2 2006, 05:53 PM
Post #92
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The Transcendental argument for the existence of God, which argues that logic, science, ethics, and other things we take seriously do not make sense if there is no God. Therefore, atheist arguments must ultimately refute themselves if pressed with rigorous consistency. By contrast, there is also a Transcendental Argument for the Non-existence of God.
How, exactly, does that make sense?
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The Teleological argument, which argues that the universe's order and complexity shows signs of purpose (telos), and that it must have been designed by an intelligent designer with properties that only a god could have.
Isn't the Universe a random and constantly changing anomaly filled with exploding stars and colliding galaxies? o_O
I'm looking into Godel's ontological argument...but there is always contradictions and criticisms against all theological arguments, and I doubt this is an exemption.
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Gladstone/Sentynel/Krim/Gladstone/Sentynel/Krim/Stroud/Gladstone
The three ships. Kinda like the Mayflower and all those.
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Jul 2 2006, 05:58 PM
Post #93
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How, exactly, does that make sense?
If there is no God, there is no difference between Good and Evil. There are no correct assumptions and wrong assumptions. Goofy? I know.
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Isn't the Universe a random and constantly changing anomaly filled with exploding stars and colliding galaxies? o_O
Yes, but it is complex.
The wiki's agruement against God are more convincing, actually.
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I'm looking into Godel's ontological argument...but there is always contradictions and criticisms against all theological arguments, and I doubt this is an exemption.
It doesn't try to establish the proof of god beyond doubt, it's a logical investigation using math. By far, it is much more convincing than the other arguements.
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Shame of the Super Son
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Krim
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Jul 2 2006, 06:07 PM
Post #94
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If there is no God, there is no difference between Good and Evil. There are no correct assumptions and wrong assumptions. Goofy? I know.
Uh, how? Good and evil is subjective. Over time man has forged a set of morals that were deemed proper...in the beginning cavemen probably found nothing wrong with killing, until man eventually decided people's existence was necessary.
And yes, it's complex, but that's only half of the argument...the other half is 'order'. And there isn't much order to it.
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Gladstone/Sentynel/Krim/Gladstone/Sentynel/Krim/Stroud/Gladstone
The three ships. Kinda like the Mayflower and all those.
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Jul 2 2006, 06:09 PM
Post #95
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Not really, if god exists, good and evil are fixed.
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Shame of the Super Son
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Krim
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Jul 2 2006, 06:15 PM
Post #96
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...Eh?
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Gladstone/Sentynel/Krim/Gladstone/Sentynel/Krim/Stroud/Gladstone
The three ships. Kinda like the Mayflower and all those.
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Jul 2 2006, 06:24 PM
Post #97
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Plato once said 'God ever Geometrizes' And Pythagoras: "Numbers rule the universe.
And Ramunujan: - Quote:
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According to Srinivasa Ramanujan, "an equation is meaningless to me unless it expresses a thought of God." He often said that in Mathematics alone, one can have a concrete realisation of God. 0/0, he used to ask, "what is its value?" It may be anything. "The zero of the numerator may be several times the zero of denominator and vice versa. The value cannot be determined. In the same way 2n − 1 will denote the primordial God and several divinities. When n is zero the expression denotes zero, there is nothing; when n is 1, the expression denotes unity, the Infinite God. When n is 2, the expression denotes Trinity; when n is 3, the expression denotes 7, the Saptha Rishis (Seven Sages of Ursa Major) and so on.[1] [2]
God is order, God is Truth (Or the other way around: 'Truth is God') Without god, there is chaos, there is no right or wrong, 2 + 2 is not equal to 4.
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Hodge
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Jul 2 2006, 07:06 PM
Post #98
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Uh, how? Good and evil is subjective. Over time man has forged a set of morals that were deemed proper...in the beginning cavemen probably found nothing wrong with killing, until man eventually decided people's existence was necessary.
Or they started listening to that little voice in the back of their head that said, "Don't do it." That's called a conscience.
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Jul 2 2006, 07:11 PM
Post #99
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Er no, Good and Evil are subjective, that's part of the agruement against god.
I think this thread violates Occam's Razor
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entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.
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Hodge
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Jul 2 2006, 07:23 PM
Post #100
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Here are some good strong facts for God.
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1. Does God exist? Throughout history, in all cultures of the world, people have been convinced there is a God. Billions of people, who represent diverse sociological, intellectual, emotional, educational makeups...believe that there is a Creator, a God to be worshipped. Now, the fact that so many people believe something certainly doesn't make it true. But when so many people through the ages are so personally convinced that God exists, can one say with absolute confidence that they are all mistaken? "Anthropological research has indicated that among the farthest and most remote primitive people today, there is a universal belief in God. And in the earliest histories and legends of people all around the world, the original concept was of one God, who was the Creator. An original high God seems once to have been in their consciousness even in those societies which are today polytheistic."3
2. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today. Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few: The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.4 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet it restrains our massive oceans from spilling over across the continents.5
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.6
Water is also chemically inert. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.7
The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of this article in your hand. Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.8 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information...can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ?
When NASA launches a shuttle mission, it is assumed a monkey didn't write the plan, but intelligent and knowledgeable minds. How does one explain the existence of the human brain? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.
3. Does God exist? Mere "chance" is not an adequate explanation of creation. Imagine looking at Mount Rushmore, in which the likenesses of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are carved. Could you ever believe that it came about by chance? Given infinite time, wind, rain and chance, it is still hard to believe something like that, tied to history, was randomly formed in the side of a mountain. Common sense tells us that people planned and skillfully carved those figures. This article only touches on a few amazing aspects of our world: the Earth's position to the sun, some properties of water, one organ in the human body. Could any of these have come about by chance?
The distinguished astronomer Sir Frederick Hoyle showed how amino acids randomly coming together in a human cell is mathematically absurd. Sir Hoyle illustrated the weakness of "chance" with the following analogy. "What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a 747, accidentally assemble them into a plane, and leave it ready for take-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!"9
When one considers the intricacies of our life and universe, it is reasonable to think that an intelligent, loving Creator provided for everything we need for life. The Bible describes God as the author and sustainer of life.
4. Does God exist? Humankind's inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained. There arises in all of us, of any culture, universal feelings of right and wrong. Even a thief gets upset and feels wronged when someone steals from him. If someone violently grabs a child from a family and rapes that child, there is an anger and revulsion and a rage to confront that act as evil, regardless of the culture. Where did we get this sense of wrongness? How do we explain a universal law in the conscience of all people that says murder for fun is wrong? And in areas like courage, dying for a cause, love, dignity, duty and compassion, where did these come from? If people are merely products of physical evolution, "survival of the fittest," why do we sacrifice for each other? Where did we get this inner sense of right and wrong? Our conscience can best be explained by a loving Creator who cares about the decisions and harmony of humanity.
5. Does God exist? God not only has revealed Himself in what can be observed in nature, and in human life, but He has even more specifically shown Himself in the Bible. God's thoughts, personality, and attitudes can only be known if God chooses to reveal them. All else would be human speculation. We are at a loss if God does not wish to be known. But God wants us to know Him and has told us in the Bible all we need to know about His character and how to relate to Him. This makes the reliability of the Bible an important consideration. Archaeological findings continue to confirm rather than refute the accuracy of the Bible. For example, an archeological find in northern Israel in August 1993 confirmed the existence of King David, author of many of the Psalms in the Bible.10 The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological discoveries continue to substantiate the historical accuracy of the Bible.
The Bible was written over a 1500-year span, by 40 different authors, in different locations and on separate continents, written in three different languages, covering diverse subject matters at different points in history.11 Yet there is an astounding consistency in its message. Throughout the entire Bible the same message appears:
God created the world we live in, and created us specifically to have a relationship with Him. He deeply loves us. We have sinned and are under God's judgment, in need of His forgiveness. God provided a way for our sins to be forgiven. He asks us to receive His forgiveness and have a relationship with Him that will last eternally. Along with this central script, the Bible specifically reveals God's character. Psalm 145 is a typical summary of God's personality, thoughts and feelings toward us. If you want to know God, here He is.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God. Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at Him. Though He talked about His Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in Him, believed in the Father. He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."12 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."13
What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because He constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.14
What did Jesus reveal about God's personality? What about God's thoughts, expectations and His feelings toward humankind? Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of His punishment, His love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God would have His Son receive the punishment for our sin. And Jesus willingly accepted this plan.
Jesus was tortured with a whip of nine sharp-tipped ends. A "crown" of two-inch thorns was pressed into his head. Then they secured Him to a cross by pounding nails through His hands and feet into the wood. Given His other miracles, those nails didn't keep Him on the cross; His love for us did. Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with Him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to Himself. Because of Jesus' death we can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. God says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."15 This is God, in action.
The most conclusive proof that Jesus is equal to God was Jesus' most closely scrutinized miracle - His own resurrection from the dead. Jesus said that three days after His burial He would come back to life. On the third day after His crucifixion, the almost two-ton boulder in front of His tomb was catapulted up a slope.16 The guard of well-trained Roman soldiers saw a blinding light and an angel. The tomb was empty, except for the burial clothes that had been wrapped around Jesus' body. Over the years, legal, historical and logical analysis has been applied to Jesus' resurrection and the most feasible conclusion still is that Jesus rose from the dead.
Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."17
Do you want to begin a relationship with God and actually know you are accepted by Him?
This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with Him, you can do so right now by asking Him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."18 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. Thank you that you want a relationship with me. Amen."
God views your relationship with Him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in Him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."19
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Jul 2 2006, 07:27 PM
Post #101
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Against.
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Empirical arguments (against) Empirical arguments depend on empirical data in order to prove their conclusions.
"Within the framework of scientific rationalism one arrives at the belief in the nonexistence of God, not because of certain knowledge, but because of a sliding scale of methods. At one extreme, we can confidently rebut the personal Gods of creationists on firm empirical grounds: science is sufficient to conclude beyond reasonable doubt that there never was a worldwide flood and that the evolutionary sequence of the Cosmos does not follow either of the two versions of Genesis. The more we move toward a deistic and fuzzily defined God, however, the more scientific rationalism reaches into its toolbox and shifts from empirical science to logical philosophy informed by science. Ultimately, the most convincing arguments against a deistic God are Hume's dictum and Occam's razor. These are philosophical arguments, but they also constitute the bedrock of all of science, and cannot therefore be dismissed as non-scientific. The reason we put our trust in these two principles is because their application in the empirical sciences has led to such spectacular successes throughout the last three centuries." [6] The argument from inconsistent revelations contests the existence of the Middle Eastern, Biblical deity called God as described in holy scriptures, such as the Jewish Tanakh, the Christian Bible, or the Muslim Qur'an, by identifying contradictions between different scriptures, contradictions within a single scripture, or contradictions between scripture and known facts. The problem of evil (or theodicy) in general, and the logical and evidential arguments from evil in particular contest the existence of a god who is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent by arguing that such a god would not permit the existence of perceivable evil or suffering, which can easily be shown to exist. Already Epicure pointed out the contradiction, stating that if an omnipotent God existed, the evil in the world should be impossible. As there is evil in the world, the god must either not be omnipotent or he must not be omnibenevolent. If he is not omnipotent, he is not God; if he is not omnibenevolent, he is not God the Allmercyful, but an evil creature. Similar arguments have been performed by Schopenhauer. The argument from poor design contests the idea that a god created life, on the basis that lifeforms exhibit poor or malevolent design, which can be easily explained using evolution and naturalism. The argument from nonbelief contests the existence of an omnipotent god who wants humans to believe in him by arguing that such a god would do a better job of gathering believers. This argument is contested by the claim that God wants to test humans to see who has the most faith. However, this assertion is dismissed by the argument surrounding the problem of evil. [edit]
Deductive arguments (against) Deductive arguments attempt to prove their conclusions by deductive reasoning from true premises.
The omnipotence paradox is one of many arguments which argue that the definitions or descriptions of a god are logically contradictory, demonstrating his non-existence. One simple argument that the existence of a god is self-contradictory goes as follows: If God is defined as omniscient and omnipotent, then God has absolute knowledge of all events that will occur in the future, including all of his future actions, due to his omniscience. However, his omnipotence implies he has the power to act in a different manner than he predicted, thus implying that God's predictions about the future are fallible. This implies that God is not really omniscient, at least when it comes to knowledge about future events. So a God defined as omniscient and omnipotent cannot exist. Theists may counter that God exists out of time and the premises for this argument are wrong, but this argument is flawless if you accept its premises. The argument from free will contests the existence of an omniscient god who has free will by arguing that the two properties are contradictory. The Transcendental Argument for the Non-existence of God contests the existence of an intelligent creator by demonstrating that such a being would make logic and morality contingent, which is incompatible with the presuppositionalist assertion that they are necessary, and contradicts the efficacy of science. A more general line of argument based on TANG, [7], seeks to generalize this argument to all necessary features of the universe and all god-concepts. The counter-argument against the Cosmological argument ("chicken or the egg") states that if the Universe had to be created by God because it must have a creator, then God, in turn would have had to be created by some other God, and so on. This attacks the premise that the Universe is the second cause, (after God, who is claimed to be the first cause). A common response to this is that God exists outside of time and hence needs no cause. However, such arguments can also be applied to the universe itself - that since time began when the universe did, it is non-sensical to talk about a state "before" the universe which could have caused it, since cause requires time. Theological noncognitivism, as used in literature, usually seeks to disprove the god-concept by showing that it is unverifiable and meaningless. [edit]
Inductive arguments (against) Inductive arguments argue their conclusions through inductive reasoning.
The atheist-existentialist argument for the non-existence of a perfect sentient being states that since existence precedes essence, it follows from the meaning of the term sentient that a sentient being cannot be complete or perfect. It is touched upon by Jean-Paul Sartre in Being and Nothingness. Sartre's phrasing is that God would be a pour-soi [a being-for-itself; a consciousness] who is also an en-soi [a being-in-itself; a thing]: which is a contradiction in terms. The argument is echoed thus in Salman Rushdie's novel Grimus: "That which is complete is also dead." The "no reason" argument tries to show that an omnipotent or perfect being would not have any reason to act in any way, specifically creating the universe, because it would have no desires since the very concept of desire is subjectively human. As the universe exists, there is a contradiction, and therefore, an omnipotent god cannot exist. This argument is espoused by Scott Adams in the book God's Debris.
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Phaos
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Jul 2 2006, 07:34 PM
Post #102
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I beleive in creation, and I beleive in evolution to an extent. Im from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (more commonly known as mormons, or lds for short). And I dont really have time to read this whole topic today, or even this week, but I can answer questions if you guys have any.
tibit about mormons: We dont only beleive in the bible, but another book called the book of mormon, and while the bible has its flaws, the book of mormon is the most perfect book on earth. So if I quote stuff, it might be from the book of mormon.
-about forgivness --I lord will forgive whom I forgive, but of you, it is required to forgive all men. --turn the other cheek --7 times 70
I do not know where any of those are from, only that it says them somewhere in the bible and or BoM
-about creation --god is and always was and always will be (in other words, no one said, let there be god, he just was) -- a day to god is 100,000 years to us(I dont remember the exact numbers) ---god took parts of other planets to form earth --when god said let their be light, he made the sun
-evolution --evolution happens, and maybe its even possible that god made apes evolve into man before he put a soul in one, and named it adam, we'll probally never know as long as we live
anything else?
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Jul 2 2006, 07:37 PM
Post #103
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Hodge, the Earth is perfect because life evolved to be suited to it's conditions.
Right and Wrong have always been subjective to the person, there is no 'inherent' sense of right and wrong. The mayans would have been elated if the sun priests took their wives, raped them and sacraficed them.
Archaelogical evidence supports the Bible? The Gnostic Bibles and Dead sea scrolls included? I think not. And the Bible was doctored quite a bit by pagan Romans, don't forget.
Jesus was a Rabbi, a teacher and preacher like any other. Emperor Constatine made him a god. The walking on water and such is metaphour, not be taken literally.
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Luciene
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Jul 2 2006, 07:41 PM
Post #104
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- Phaos
- Jul 2 2006, 03:34 PM
-- a day to god is 100,000 years to us(I dont remember the exact numbers)
Yah...I believe in that. The bible is a metaphor. It's not a historical book, it's religious, so obviously, you can't read it like everty thing actually happened.
And just because it sasy that the world was created in 7 days doesn't mean that it was 7 days in our terms. So evolution, probably happened.
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Jul 2 2006, 07:42 PM
Post #105
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My god is a number, an equation, An abstract concept. What is yours?
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